Build on The Science of Hitting

[caseyd123]

Hey folks,

Just finished reading Ted Williams' The Science of Hitting for the second time and was wondering what modern-day material I could pick up that teaches the same style? I'm looking to go into more detail on the Williams swing but I also know how much controversy there is about proper hitting mechanics so I'm basically wondering which materials/coaches preach the same ideas represented in Ted's (great) book? I got really into Ted's ideas and the last thing I want is to pick up a book/DVD that starts conflicting with what is in Ted's book.

Thanks!

-Donovan

[tom.guerry]

see also the Williams hitting films which are available from rare sports films, someone here can post the link perhaps.

Epstein is the most c/w Williams, see

mikeepsteinhitting.com

Also see books by Ferroli

[caseyd123]

thanks tom! i just checked out the Epstein site and it is exactly what I was looking for...

[Chris O'Leary]

see also the Williams hitting films which are available from rare sports films, someone here can post the link perhaps.

Epstein is the most c/w Williams, see

The only problem with Epstein is that he gets the same things wrong as Ted Williams. For example, Williams wants the bat mostly level to the ground and up/down adjustment to come from hinging the back knee.

The best hitters don't adjust that way.

Instead, they tilt.

[Go Cardinals]

thanks tom! i just checked out the Epstein site and it is exactly what I was looking for...

Talk to Cally Jr... he knows a lot about the epstein system, as does jbooth.

[XV84]

The only problem with Epstein is that he gets the same things wrong as Ted Williams. For example, Williams wants the bat mostly level to the ground and up/down adjustment to come from hinging the back knee.

The best hitters don't adjust that way.

Instead, they tilt.

Is the tilt a cause or effect? What exactly "tilts"? The shoulders? If so, do the shoulders tilt consciously or do they tilt to follow where the hands want to go? Are the shoulders or hands in control? Do the hands follow the shoulders or do the shoulders follow the hands?

[Slapper23]

Chris,

Williams doesn't say swing mostly level to the ground, he says swing level to the ball. The swing is slightly up, according to Ted Williams. I recognize we may quibble on what "slightly up" means, but I get what Williams is saying.

On the back knee hinge teach, when the hitters sits to hit, does he/she not hinge the back knee? And the up and down adjustment is not simply adjusted by tilt, but also degree of sit, IMO.

Mike

[Chris O'Leary]

Is the tilt a cause or effect? What exactly "tilts"? The shoulders? If so, do the shoulders tilt consciously or do they tilt to follow where the hands want to go? Are the shoulders or hands in control? Do the hands follow the shoulders or do the shoulders follow the hands?

The shoulders clearly tilt, but I know that many/most people at the pro level focus on the hands to drive the tilt (and most everything else).

The same thing is true of pitchers. If you want to throw from a higher arm slot, you think "high hand" and the body takes care of the shoulder tilt.

[Chris O'Leary]

Williams doesn't say swing mostly level to the ground, he says swing level to the ball. The swing is slightly up, according to Ted Williams. I recognize we may quibble on what "slightly up" means, but I get what Williams is saying.

IMO these are two different issues.

In his book Williams DOES talk about swinging with a slight uppercut. However, in the same set of illustrations he shows the bat pretty much level to the ground.

On the back knee hinge teach, when the hitters sits to hit, does he/she not hinge the back knee?

No.

I have studied this in depth in pro hitters. While you do see some slight (e.g. max 5 degrees) variation in back knee angle, you see dramatic differences in shoulder tilt. That says to me that 90-95 percent of up/down adjustment is by tilt and maybe 5-10 percent of up/down adjustment is by back knee hinge.

[Mark H]

Given there's little or no weight on the back foot and the front knee is straight or close to it at impact how do you propose the back knee hinging is going to affect much of anything? Sure didn't make much difference to Clemente did it?

[Mark H]

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[gameth]

IMO these are two different issues.

In his book Williams DOES talk about swinging with a slight uppercut. However, in the same set of illustrations he shows the bat pretty much level to the ground.




No.

I have studied this in depth in pro hitters. While you do see some slight (e.g. max 5 degrees) variation in back knee angle, you see dramatic differences in shoulder tilt. That says to me that 90-95 percent of up/down adjustment is by tilt and maybe 5-10 percent of up/down adjustment is by back knee hinge.

Perhaps Chris you could look at the whole picture here.

Epstien and Williams talk about the shoulder tilt and elbow height in their work as the source of path adjustment to the ball (they call it weathervaning if im correct). They do NOT use the hinged back knee as the way to adjust to the ball as you state. Yes, there will be less hinge on a higher pitch but it is the elbow height that is controlled by the shoulder tilt that does most of the work in this case.

It's not as easy as just sit on your back leg and swing. There are plenty of tips on shoulder and elbow adjustment (your tilting) in their work.

There are several planes that you are adjusting through for lack of a better work at the moment. Its not just hinge the back knee, or just tilt.

[Slapper23]

Chris,

I agree with you that up and down is primarily adjusted by tilt. But "sit" is also important and necessary in combination with tilt. I don't know about the percentages. I think that would be hard to pinpoint and really a moot point, as we both know what we're after.

I think the hitter loads the rear hip and controls when to launch via the "ride." The load/unload sequence is in effect a back, then forward (forward by turning) movement. In this regard, I can see how someone might talk about controlling up and down through riding the back leg into "sit" and rotation. I don't talk about "back knee hinging" to control up and down with my hitters. I'm more or less paying devil's advocate here in talking about it and seeing where the discussion leads.

Mike

[Chris O'Leary]

Perhaps Chris you could look at the whole picture here.

Epstien and Williams talk about the shoulder tilt and elbow height in their work as the source of path adjustment to the ball (they call it weathervaning if im correct). They do NOT use the hinged back knee as the way to adjust to the ball as you state.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

In Williams' book (I'm not sure what page) Williams explicitly says that the back knee hinge will vary according to the height of the pitch. He proposes no other mechanism for making up/down adjustments.

I also have a friend who is Epstein-certified and he spends a lot of time talking about the back knee hinge angle, which leads me to believe that Epstein believes and teaches something similar.

[Chris O'Leary]

Given there's little or no weight on the back foot and the front knee is straight or close to it at impact how do you propose the back knee hinging is going to affect much of anything? Sure didn't make much difference to Clemente did it?

Fantastic point!

All of this assumes the squish the bug, back-foot-hitter pattern which you do not see in 99% of good major league swings.

Barry Bonds is the only major leaguer I can think of who could be described as a back foot hitter on his good swings, and we all know that Barry is not 100% pure and natural.