Travel Ball question ..or two?

[bluefan89]

How early does travel ball start in your area for youth? My son is in coach pitch 7 yr. old. Any groups doing it that young or is that too young?

Thanks

[CoachHenry]

It really depends on how it is handeled. You can do it wrong or do it right on every level. How many games do you play a week and how many tournaments and how often?

[Jake Patterson]

It really depends on how it is handeled. You can do it wrong or do it right on every level. How many games do you play a week and how many tournaments and how often?

I agree with the spirit of the above message, but... I do not recommend TB while the players are on the small field. The problem with TB is the emphasis on winning.

[CoachHenry]

I agree with the spirit of the above message, but... I do not recommend TB while the players are on the small field. The problem with TB is the emphasis on winning.

I'm not sure what you call small field but I'm guessing anything under 60/90? I agree with the spirit of what YOU are saying but I have a different view of the age that it could be CONSIDERED to play TB. And.... hand in hand with that is how the league is ran, tourneys entered, and so on. TB for 10 yr olds if fine if competition exists without the rabid emphasis on winning. Anything younger than that is iffy in my book.

Right along with the negativity of TB goes negativity of the recreation leagues. Those can be poorly run as well and at times are the reason some teams go TB before they probably should.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm not sure what you call small field but I'm guessing anything under 60/90? I agree with the spirit of what YOU are saying but I have a different view of the age that it could be CONSIDERED to play TB. And.... hand in hand with that is how the league is ran, tourneys entered, and so on. TB for 10 yr olds if fine if competition exists without the rabid emphasis on winning. Anything younger than that is iffy in my book.

Right along with the negativity of TB goes negativity of the recreation leagues. Those can be poorly run as well and at times are the reason some teams go TB before they probably should.

There has been much discussion here on this topic. I will offer again what I have found... Those who tend to vigorously support TB are those who have children in TB. Those who tend to vigorously support not playing TB tend to be HS+ coaches or those parents who have gone through it. I suggest no TB until the players reach the big field (13 y/o). As a HS coach I found it had as many detriments to it as it had benefits.

[GFK]

... I do not recommend TB while the players are on the small field. The problem with TB is the emphasis on winning.

Jake, in my neck of the woods, the rec teams have more of an emphasis on winning and less of an emphasis on development than the TB / Select group. Most of the rec leagues come up with all kinds of drafting procedures to "avoid" stacking and every year at least one coach in each age bracket figures out a way around the procedure.

With TB, every coach is free and encouraged to "stack" as best they can. In TB / Select, parents and kids have a say in what coach they play under. In rec, it is left up to the draft.

Besides, I think a certain level of competition is good for all involved. A smart coach knows he is going to have to develop players to be competative or stay competative. Competition is not a dirty word.

Jake, I know you were in the education field for some time. If you stand outside of this particular arguement and look at it, it has parallels to the school voucher debate that comes and goes.

[CoachHenry]

There has been much discussion here on this topic. I will offer again what I have found... Those who tend to vigorously support TB are those who have children in TB. Those who tend to vigorously support not playing TB tend to be HS+ coaches or those parents who have gone through it. I suggest no TB until the players reach the big field (13 y/o). As a HS coach I found it had as many detriments to it as it had benefits.

I have gone through it, my son is in HS now. I've seen good and bad in it. Our HS coaches support TB and are involved with the 8th grade layer of it. It indeed DOES have detriments if not done right. Rec ball DOES have detriments if not done right. It's all situational.

I can't disagree that 13 could be the age that it should start if your area is rabid with winning. We have some of that as well. However many teams don't and that is what each parent has to pay attention to and monitor.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, in my neck of the woods, the rec teams have more of an emphasis on winning and less of an emphasis on development than the TB / Select group. Most of the rec leagues come up with all kinds of drafting procedures to "avoid" stacking and every year at least one coach in each age bracket figures out a way around the procedure.

With TB, every coach is free and encouraged to "stack" as best they can. In TB / Select, parents and kids have a say in what coach they play under. In rec, it is left up to the draft.

Besides, I think a certain level of competition is good for all involved. A smart coach knows he is going to have to develop players to be competative or stay competative. Competition is not a dirty word.

Jake, I know you were in the education field for some time. If you stand outside of this particular arguement and look at it, it has parallels to the school voucher debate that comes and goes.

In the scenario you describe above, less talented players are unable to play and talent development is variable at best. If you "stack" the team then the emphasis is on winning. I argue there is a time and place for that. In baseball I offer it is when the players reach the big field. The arguements you present are standard pro TB and again are usually made by parents. I suggest getting involved in your local Rec league and help make it fun.


PS: I was not a teacher (coached for 25 years). My BS is in business and my M.Ed is in Androgogy (The study of how adults learn) and Distance Learning. I am retired after running an electronics company.
PSS: Both my boys are adults. One is still playing (MABL) and coaching himself.

[GFK]

In the scenario you describe above, less talented players are unable to play and talent development is variable at best. If you "stack" the team then the emphasis is on winning. I argue there is a time and place for that. In baseball I offer it is when the players reach the big field. The arguements you present are standard pro TB and again are usually made by parents. I suggest getting involved in your local Rec league and help make it fun.


PS: I was not a teacher (coached for 25 years). My BS is in business and my M.Ed is in Androgogy (The study of how adults learn) and Distance Learning. I am retired after running an electronics company.
PSS: Both my boys are adults. One is still playing (MABL) and coaching himself.

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were a teacher at one point.

I think you and I disagree on who is primarily responsible for player development. I think it is the parents (family members) that should be focusing on development. A coach (rec or TB) has the kid for maybe a month prior to the season start.

As far as me being a pro-TB parent, yes I am. Two of my sons play rec, enjoy it, and I enjoy watching them. One of my sons plays TB, enjoys it, and I enjoy watching. Guess which one has the overly active work ethic.

I do notice it is usually a sub-group of the rec crowd that seam to be the ones always complaining about the "evils" of TB / Select. My intuition tells me they are just as competative as the TB crowd but will not admit it. My suspicion is this sub-group doesn't like seeing the more talented players leaving their programs and watering down their All-Stars.

[korp]

I started at age 11. I think before this level its still mainly just about having fun and the competitive drive usually isn't there. Remember the game has to be just about fun and fundamentals in the early stages or kids will get burnt out.

[azmatsfan]

Jake, where do you live? Perhaps that's what's steering you're negativity toward TB. Here in Phoenix I've seen good and bad LL coaches, and good and bad TB coaches. The benefit of TB is that you can choose your coach, and if you get on a good team you can grow as a unit. (By good I don't mean win a lot of games. I mean good kids, parents, coaches, etc.) Not every travel team is only about winning. There are plenty where the focus is on developing the kids. I don't know why it's bad to do that wearing a TB uniform, but it's good to do it wearing a LL uniform.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, where do you live? Perhaps that's what's steering you're negativity toward TB. Here in Phoenix I've seen good and bad LL coaches, and good and bad TB coaches. The benefit of TB is that you can choose your coach, and if you get on a good team you can grow as a unit. (By good I don't mean win a lot of games. I mean good kids, parents, coaches, etc.) Not every travel team is only about winning. There are plenty where the focus is on developing the kids. I don't know why it's bad to do that wearing a TB uniform, but it's good to do it wearing a LL uniform.

I live in New England, but my opinion is based on travelling all over the U.S. (And several foreign countries)watching youth baseball. I am also a State Commissioner for American Legion Baseball, life-time member of Little League, and a CT State Certified Coach (I can't tell you how many seminars I have attended on this topic). There is good and bad in everything I acknowledge that. The only broad brush I use is age related. For appropriate youth athletic, social and emotional development placing young children in highly competitive scenarios has more downside than upside. Once players get to the big field I agree they have to make choices... Again, I was a TB parent and some of the experience was great.

[mudvnine]

I have to lean towards Jake in this topic; started my oldest boy in TB at 13, after his final PONY season in preperation for the HS a few months later. Started the youngest at age 11 (5th grade) and have regretted it.

Oldest boy has moved on and continues to play college ball and loving it, while I've had to have conversations with my youngest about playing the game for his love of it and not mine (as I get the feeling at times that he does). He is younger and smaller then many in the age group due to the birthdate change of TB (May 1st) last year and I feel that the advanced competiton is somewhat too much for him.

Think we may just play rec ball next year, but hope we don't regret it because he will start HS the following year and still says he wants to play ball there, were the competition level in TB will serve him better . . . . I think??

Anyway, there's plenty of years of TB available in the offseasons of HS, so don't be too overzealous in starting the kids it in. I definately feel that 7, 8 and 9 years of age is way too early, but that's merely based on my boys' experiences and I realize that all kids are different.

Good luck to you bluefan, whatever you decide,
MV9

[TG Coach]

Before addressing travel, it needs to be defined. There's a big difference between taking nine year olds all over the country, playing eighty games and spending thousands of dollars, and taking a community level travel team (advanced rec in my eyes) and playing in five to seven local tournaments over the summer, all within thirty minutes of home with no more than two games in a day.

At 9U and 10U my son played community travel. At 11U and 12U he played some USSSA travel around LL and LL all-stars. The most games he played in the preteen years was about fifty-five when he was twelve. It was the first time he played over fifty.

We had 7U and 8U machine pitch community travel tounaments. I didn't see the value. My son didn't play. We played whiffle ball at the shore on the weekends when my daughter (five years older) wasn't playing travel softball.

USSSA does run 5U Tee Ball National Championships. There are two sayings that apply; 1) If you build it they will come, and 2) There's a sucker born every minute.

In our area USSSA travel is taking over with the better players starting at 13U. LL and Ripken are still the dominant preteen programs. Kids do play USSSA around their local rec programs much like my son did. USSSA has penetrated down to 9U. They advertised 7U and 8U tournaments. No one signed up.

What has been happening over the past few years is college prospects are more likely to play travel than Legion. The travel teams do showcases and play wood bat tournaments. Legion teams have twenty game schedules.

[Jake Patterson]

What has been happening over the past few years is college prospects are more likely to play travel than Legion.

Based on what info?

The travel teams do showcases and play wood bat tournaments. Legion teams have twenty game schedules.

27 games regular season - as many as 35-40 with zone, regional, state and national playoffs. This is about 50-70 games with the HS schedule. We have our own Legion Showcase. Last year we had a number (30+) of colleges attend.

We also have a number of invitational wood bat tournaments and many zones have returned to wood. See: http://www.baseball.legion.org/datab...ate.php?id=292

EDIT: More than 50 of our former players have become Hall of Famers. http://www.baseball.legion.org/awards/hallfame.htm