LUNGING and OR DRIFTING

[wogdoggy]

whats your definition of each.how do you fix them and what cues would you tell a tween player to fix them?

[DerekD]

I have a kid (11) on my team who isn't a strong hitter. I've got most of the kids taking a very small step towards the pitcher on their swings. This kid will take a HUGE step, like maybe a 1 ft. long. He does this WAY too early and is stuck in an awkward position trying to wait, then swing. I guess you might use the word drifting here too because his whole body will shift to his left (he's a RHB) because of this step. There are many drills out there that work on keeping the weight on the back foot. This is my solution to his problem.

[Chris O'Leary]

whats your definition of each.how do you fix them and what cues would you tell a tween player to fix them?

I define lunging as the head getting ahead of the front hip.



There can be a couple of root causes.

1. Trying to go get the ball rather than waiting for the ball to come to you. In that case, the fix is for them to wait for the ball to come to them.

2. Trying to adjust up/down in the strike zone while still swinging level to the ground. In that case, the fix is to learn how to tilt to adjust to pitches up/down in the strike zone.

[Swing Coach]

If they are lunging or drifting, it probably means a few things:

1. They are not balanced at toe touch (an absolute)
2. When the foot (heel) comes down, they are probably still moving forward. It helps for them to see this on video

Get it into their heads that their are only two major steps to hitting:

1. Take a step towards the pitcher (90 percent of pros do, or if they don't they still get weight shift).

2. Rotate (meaning your body and head has stopped moving toward the pitcher

[LClifton]

This is a good topic, Imo.
The attempt to teach forward movement without them (bear with me) carrying their head forward with that movement is tough,,,at first.

This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass is critical for momentum in the swing and must be "contained between the feet." (Meaning that the "shift" is more drastic when they first are learning and then becomes much more subtle in nature. Hope that makes some sense.

This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass, may be the phase that creates separation of lower and upper body.???

One way that I've demonstrated the proper (at least what I feel is proper) weight shift is to have them stand where they can see their shadow and to focus on their head.
In other words;
Can they "shift" and keep their head in pretty much the same place?
(Same point as swing coach is making)
If you were to try this--- you might feel your weight move to the inside of the back leg / foot---then when you shift to the inside of the front leg / foot.

Not that I coined the phrase but to me it is "going forward yet staying back."

My two cents.

[wogdoggy]

This is a good topic, Imo.
The attempt to teach forward movement without them (bear with me) carrying their head forward with that movement is tough,,,at first.

This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass is critical for momentum in the swing and must be "contained between the feet." (Meaning that the "shift" is more drastic when they first are learning and then becomes much more subtle in nature. Hope that makes some sense.

This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass, may be the phase that creates separation of lower and upper body.???

One way that I've demonstrated the proper (at least what I feel is proper) weight shift is to have them stand where they can see their shadow and to focus on their head.
In other words;
Can they "shift" and keep their head in pretty much the same place?
(Same point as swing coach is making)
If you were to try this--- you might feel your weight move to the inside of the back leg / foot---then when you shift to the inside of the front leg / foot.

Not that I coined the phrase but to me it is "going forward yet staying back."

My two cents.

This kid doesnt straight step...he "coils" his lower body...when he uncoils he tends to coil out more than desirable {RHander} to third base..the coil vs step has helped this guy time the ball beetter and hit with more power..the downside is coiling out and getting excessive head movement..personally I'd rather see the coil than the straight step..i believe lunging and drifting are one of the worst faults most LL er's will have.

my cues have been let the ball get to you,keep your knees a lil more flexed,HEAD STILL and one I may try is "keep your weight inside your left foot"???????

[Mark H]

1. Take a step towards the pitcher (90 percent of pros do, or if they don't they still get weight shift).

That's what Nyman was referring to when he said you have to have some momemtum to rotate well. You don't necessarily have to have a lot, but you have to have some.

2. Rotate (meaning your body and head has stopped moving toward the pitcher

Well that seems a rather incomplete definition of rotation but I would have said the head and front hip joint stops moving toward the pitcher. Back hip and shoulder still continue to move toward the pitcher but I agree with your point which I assume to be the front hip and head shouldn't be moving forward during rotation.

[Mark H]

This is a good topic, Imo.
The attempt to teach forward movement without them (bear with me) carrying their head forward with that movement is tough,,,at first.

This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass is critical for momentum in the swing and must be "contained between the feet." (Meaning that the "shift" is more drastic when they first are learning and then becomes much more subtle in nature. Hope that makes some sense.

This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass, may be the phase that creates separation of lower and upper body.???

One way that I've demonstrated the proper (at least what I feel is proper) weight shift is to have them stand where they can see their shadow and to focus on their head.
In other words;
Can they "shift" and keep their head in pretty much the same place?
(Same point as swing coach is making)
If you were to try this--- you might feel your weight move to the inside of the back leg / foot---then when you shift to the inside of the front leg / foot.

Not that I coined the phrase but to me it is "going forward yet staying back."

My two cents.

I'm not concerned if the head is moving during the stride. http://www.theswearingens.com/mick/swing.htm

[Mark H]

This kid doesnt straight step...he "coils" his lower body...when he uncoils he tends to coil out more than desirable {RHander} to third base..the coil vs step has helped this guy time the ball beetter and hit with more power..the downside is coiling out and getting excessive head movement..personally I'd rather see the coil than the straight step..i believe lunging and drifting are one of the worst faults most LL er's will have.

my cues have been let the ball get to you,keep your knees a lil more flexed,HEAD STILL and one I may try is "keep your weight inside your left foot"???????

Sounds like you are exploring some good things. For anyone interested I suggest understanding the nature of the uncoil can be furthered by reading Dixon's book and studying Englishbey's stuff.

[wogdoggy]

I'm not concerned if the head is moving during the stride. http://www.theswearingens.com/mick/swing.htm

YES if you believe in nothing happens till foot plant..why have the excessive movement if not useful.. why move the head so much??I'm looking for cues to keep this kids off their front side WITHOUT making them reverse rotating bug squishers.

[LClifton]

I'm not concerned if the head is moving during the stride.

Me neither.
Good point. Thanks. Didn't mean to indicate zero movement, so I included;

Can they "shift" and keep their head in pretty much the same place?

I should have been more clear, because there is (again IMO) a lot that happens during this "shifting" that can hinder launch.
For example, with some of the kids I work with, when first learning, the weight shift back they exhibit more of a "sway" (rather than an inward turn) and the resulting move forward leads to a "crash" onto the front side OR they stay on the back side completely OR they continue translating forward never "containing their weight" between the feet.
This word picture may work for someone here.

Using the clip in this thread I might choose to work with this hitter to feel little (not zero) head movement-- as a possible / partial solution to his lunging and to help move him along in the process.
Not with all ---but with some of the kids I work with---this has assisted with them being able to contain their weight between the feet,,,shifting more subtly, still creating momentum.

Woggy, there is something else I do,
(please exuse the simplistic nature, it's just how I do it when in front of a kid)
Dry swings.
I will hold a pole about 4" away from the left side of their face (RHB) and ask them to stride. They can (Mark) touch the pole but their head can't move past it. I want them to feel and I want to see them "shift" and rotate under their chin / head.

Would this assist in them learning to "block forward movement" better? Maybe.
Would this assist in them slowly grasping the need to execute "quicker" movement (because of the shorter space you've given them) to enhance momentum?
Maybe.

Good luck Woggy.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Donny on "Stopping the Lunge"

Donny on "Stopping the Lunge"

- Lunging batters have no negative loading moves.

- Coiling the hips and triggering the hands as the weight is carried forward in the stride helps stop lunging.

- Hitters with no negative loading moves will lunge

- I have never seen a kid that had hip coil and a good upper body loading pattern that lunged.

[LClifton]

Donny on "Stopping the Lunge"

- Lunging batters have no negative loading moves.

- Coiling the hips and triggering the hands as the weight is carried forward in the stride helps stop lunging.

- Hitters with no negative loading moves will lunge

- I have never seen a kid that had hip coil and a good upper body loading pattern that lunged.

Five Frame,
Excellent.
Sometimes cause and effect can be realized in different ways.
I spoke to Donnie specifically about this on the phone.
One thing he told me; (paraphrasing)
"Don't be surprised when eliminating the lunging, with your methods, that your kids begin to develop a better loading pattern." "Watch for it." "They will discover they need to position themselves (load) to generate power."

[tom.guerry]

Clif-

Donny and I talked a lot about shift and the 1 vs 2 plane patterns quite a bit.

In the 2 plane/mlb type pattern the main adjustment is adjusting the spine angle by synched tilt of the shoulders and shift of spine.


This base of spine shift ("T") is illustrated in golf here synched with the rocking/tilting of the shoulders which are then turned by then hips as the hips turn after the lateral shift, see:

http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing07.php

In the MLB hitting pattern, you need the forward momentum "carry" via hip cock, then the base of spine needs to be able to shift at "GO" synched to the tilt of the shoulders which in turn is synched to/controlled by the torque of the forearms/hands on the handle of the bat.

This synched spine shift/shoulder tilt (superimposed on the forward momentum/coil/sit that is underway as you rotate into toe touch) adjusts the spine angle as the primary adjustment for location with the last little bit of adjustment then coming from how much the lead arm gets up off the chest (weathervane).

This synch of shoulder/hip/weight shift is quite different from one plane golf (and PCR hitting) where the main spine angle adjustment is by bend at waist and turning rather than tilting the shoulders with weight starting more even and then flowing to the front foot rather than the more pronounced back and forth weight shift of the 2P swing.

This is why Donny was emphasizing the negative move to encourage the back and forth weight SHIFT that goes along with the 2 plane golf and MLB type tip and rip.

[wogdoggy]

Clif-

Donny and I talked a lot about shift and the 1 vs 2 plane patterns quite a bit.

In the 2 plane/mlb type pattern the main adjustment is adjusting the spine angle by synched tilt of the shoulders and shift of spine.


This base of spine shift ("T") is illustrated in golf here synched with the rocking/tilting of the shoulders which are then turned by then hips as the hips turn after the lateral shift, see:

http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing07.php

In the MLB hitting pattern, you need the forward momentum "carry" via hip cock, then the base of spine needs to be able to shift at "GO" synched to the tilt of the shoulders which in turn is synched to/controlled by the torque of the forearms/hands on the handle of the bat.

This synched spine shift/shoulder tilt (superimposed on the forward momentum/coil/sit that is underway as you rotate into toe touch) adjusts the spine angle as the primary adjustment for location with the last little bit of adjustment then coming from how much the lead arm gets up off the chest (weathervane).

This synch of shoulder/hip/weight shift is quite different from one plane golf (and PCR hitting) where the main spine angle adjustment is by bend at waist and turning rather than tilting the shoulders with weight starting more even and then flowing to the front foot rather than the more pronounced back and forth weight shift of the 2P swing.

This is why Donny was emphasizing the negative move to encourage the back and forth weight SHIFT that goes along with the 2 plane golf and MLB type tip and rip.

are we talking about a negative load like the one candreia{SP}???? talks about with team usa{tom linked it from you tube},,OR do you consider the negative load as a move with the rear right buttock toward the 3 base dug out{PUJOLS CLIP}

one actually promotes a "SWAY" backwards vs a more true hip cock..

he actually seems to lunge less when he bends his knees more.