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Will throwing football help pitching velocity?

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  • Go Cardinals
    replied
    Originally posted by StraightGrain11 View Post
    No, it didn't help my form on my turns. But it busted the crap out of my core and leg muscles, and definitely presented quite the endurance challenge - ALL extremely important in every aspect of swimming.
    I would have to agree with you.

    Swimming has done the same for me as it did for you. '

    I think there is a lot of merit in cross training. I heard that Aaron miles used to hit a punching bag every day, and it helped him have quicker hands. Also, I think it was erik who said that they played a lot of ping pong and it helped him in college I believe it was.

    Fooseball has helped my swing I think because of the whole aspect of letting the ball come to you and not go get it. Also, it strengthened my wrists. I mean there are many other activities that have helped my wrist strength.

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  • StraightGrain11
    replied
    Originally posted by APPpitch View Post
    The focus of my analogy would be how doing something else would have helped a swimmer to cut down their lap times? Staying "in shape", despite you already being in shape, would be a different focus. I'm sure you would agree that playing water polo was just a mental distraction and did not help you make your turns faster.

    It is my understanding that Michael Phelps trained about 363 days a year swimming to prepare for the Olympics, and yet was tested among the weakest in strength tests.

    -scott
    No, it didn't help my form on my turns. But it busted the crap out of my core and leg muscles, and definitely presented quite the endurance challenge - ALL extremely important in every aspect of swimming.
    Last edited by StraightGrain11; 05-23-2008, 09:43 PM.

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  • Baseball gLove
    replied
    Didn't a swim psychologist-nutritionist help Mills write his partial plagiarism of Marshall?

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  • APPpitch
    replied
    Originally posted by StraightGrain11 View Post
    I was a competitive swimmer for almost 15 years. I started swimming competitively when I was 4 and finished my senior year of HS. And I can honestly say that swimming, alone, kept my ENTIRE body (including my arm) in top physical condition all those years. And it would actually be more like asking a competitive swimmer to try water polo or synchronized swimming - ALL which would help in some way, shape, or form (our coach used to have us play polo at the end of our practices sometimes - it was hard/tiring as ****).
    The focus of my analogy would be how doing something else would have helped a swimmer to cut down their lap times? Staying "in shape", despite you already being in shape, would be a different focus. I'm sure you would agree that playing water polo was just a mental distraction and did not help you make your turns faster.

    It is my understanding that Michael Phelps trained about 363 days a year swimming to prepare for the Olympics, and yet was tested among the weakest in strength tests.

    -scott

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  • StraightGrain11
    replied
    Originally posted by APPpitch View Post
    It's like asking a competitive swimmer to spend time rowing a boat. Ask a swimmer about that and watch their eyebrows turn inward.

    Just more food for thought. I think the original poster has his answer.

    -scott
    I was a competitive swimmer for almost 15 years. I started swimming competitively when I was 4 and finished my senior year of HS. And I can honestly say that swimming, alone, kept my ENTIRE body (including my arm) in top physical condition all those years. And it would actually be more like asking a competitive swimmer to try water polo or synchronized swimming - ALL which would help in some way, shape, or form (our coach used to have us play polo at the end of our practices sometimes - it was hard/tiring as ****).
    Last edited by StraightGrain11; 05-23-2008, 07:31 PM.

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  • kylebee
    replied
    Originally posted by APPpitch View Post
    From what I know, no one is promoting this activity anymore. Neither House, nor Mills nor Ellis. Why? Because it's relationship to increasing velocity does not exist. And it's relationship to command never existed.
    Marshall's students throw footballs. Just not in the way you'd think.

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  • APPpitch
    replied
    Originally posted by cosmo34 View Post
    Which is why Clemens and Walker strongly encouraged maintaining your baseball throwing mechanics while throwing a football. It is also why you do not use it as an end-all-be-all tactic for throwing. If you do it right, it can only help you get loose and possibly help with a little bit of strength (not alot, but you're not going to get weaker, that's for sure).

    And heaven forbid a kid ever goes out and has a little fun besides throwing bullpens all the time. Having fun on the side is just simply unacceptable.
    I'm not singling you out, other pro-football tossing folks are being addressed here.

    I throw a football with my fingers on the side of the ball and my hand turned in a curveball hand position. I can throw a football very well and fairly far and decently accurately, but I don't throw a fastball in this manner. Maintaining a baseball-style delivery with a football is impossible.

    When it's football season, I throw a football around with my son. When it's baseball season, 9 months out of the year, we throw a baseball. Not once since I was a kid did I ever think that my football throwing skills would help my baseball throwing skills. Two completely different feels. Two completely different skill sets that taught my brain two different things.

    If you choose to use a football as part of your warmup, fine. If you think it is fun to do, fine. If you think one will help the other, you are mistaken.

    From what I know, no one is promoting this activity anymore. Neither House, nor Mills nor Ellis. Why? Because it's relationship to increasing velocity does not exist. And it's relationship to command never existed.

    It's like asking a competitive swimmer to spend time rowing a boat. Ask a swimmer about that and watch their eyebrows turn inward.

    Just more food for thought. I think the original poster has his answer.

    -scott

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  • CoachHenry
    replied
    Originally posted by APPpitch View Post

    Does Tiger Woods swing a lacrosse stick?

    -scott
    No, but he does do motion specific exercises. If throwing a football could be considered a motion specific exercise then it is valid.

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  • tom.guerry
    replied
    larger/heavier objects require more support and have the potential for stressing mechanics more.

    Throwing the football does not tend to give a sore arm, however, it instead tends to make you throw ina less stressful way which means with more of a "short arm" and with a higher arm slot than most will use throing baseball.

    SO you tend to keep about a 90 degree bend in the elbow (extending the arm then getting it back to near 90 is more stressful) nd you tend to get a higher arm slot via less merrygoround and more feris wheel.

    the release is also less pronating for football.

    throwing a round ball that is too large to palm (soccer/basketball) will also encourage the short arm and higher arm slot, but also requires more pronation to get underspin/avoid side spin.

    very good along with long toss for outfield arms where you want pure underspin.

    I prefer throwing the large objects becasue it enphasizes the merrygoround to ferris whell transition (see Nyman buggywhip model) which most kids do not get well.

    Throw these big things with a low/long arm action and they will hurt.

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  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by APPpitch View Post
    Again, distractions abound. You could spend more time on the mound throwing a small white ball into a strikezone, OR you could spend less time doing this and more time perfecting your football tossing skills. When a batter steps into the box, which skill are you now hoping to have spent more time doing?

    Time spent doing things that are not specific to your specific sporting activity is time wasted. Time you can never reclaim.

    Keep away from anything that distracts from the task at hand.
    Didn't the 70s Steelers take ballet?
    Didn't seem to hurt them too bad

    Leave a comment:


  • tominct
    replied
    Can't Hurt, Might Help...

    I read this thread with some interest. I throw a football with my son and I think it's great, for a number of reasons. First, it's throwing, and it's throwing in another athletic pursuit and that increases my son's interest. There are many times he would rather throw the football thant he baseball.

    Remember this, Joe Namath, John Elway, Dan Marino, were baseball draft picks. And what is one of the five tools, arm strength. They are all freaks for sure, but it does provide a bit of evidence for the value of throwing a football.

    Tom

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  • kylebee
    replied
    Originally posted by Baseball gLove View Post
    You are blaming House for Prior's collision with Giles which probably was the beginning of his shoulder problems? Or the excessive high pitch counts allowed by Dusty Baker, even after Baker was criticized for over-using Prior and Woods? Or are you blaming House for the 117-mph comeback line drive off the bat of Brad Hawpe, that gave Prior a compression fracture of his right elbow, the one he used for pitching? Is it House's fault that Prior missed 2 months in 2004 due to an injury of his Achilles tendon (ankle)?
    I didn't say it was necessarily Tom House's fault. Just that he and Prior are inseparable.

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  • Baseball gLove
    replied
    Originally posted by kylebee View Post
    This is one of the best exercises you can do, bar none, for a person in general - not just pitchers. Talk about serious core strengthening!

    Your point about Tom House makes sense, I guess. Except that he'll always be tied into Mark Prior's health.
    You are blaming House for Prior's collision with Giles which probably was the beginning of his shoulder problems? Or the excessive high pitch counts allowed by Dusty Baker, even after Baker was criticized for over-using Prior and Woods? Or are you blaming House for the 117-mph comeback line drive off the bat of Brad Hawpe, that gave Prior a compression fracture of his right elbow, the one he used for pitching? Is it House's fault that Prior missed 2 months in 2004 due to an injury of his Achilles tendon (ankle)?
    Last edited by Baseball gLove; 05-23-2008, 12:49 AM.

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  • kylebee
    replied
    Originally posted by Baseball gLove View Post
    He also chopped wood in the off season.
    This is one of the best exercises you can do, bar none, for a person in general - not just pitchers. Talk about serious core strengthening!

    Your point about Tom House makes sense, I guess. Except that he'll always be tied into Mark Prior's health.

    Leave a comment:


  • StraightGrain11
    replied
    APPpitch, sounds to me like you're "Dick Mills guy"....?
    Another one who knows more about pitching than the pros do...gotta love 'em.

    It's BASEBALL. It's throwing a little white piece of leather around between a few people. C'mon, man, you gotta have fun in this game or you will drive yourself crazy. No, throwing a football is not throwing a baseball. But throwing a football is not going to kill your baseball "career", either - which is something I don't know of anyone - who's NOT a professional - has.

    And using Tim Lincecum as a "poster child" for young pitchers is a JOKE. That young man (or boy) is a freak-of-a-nature. He's a VERY VERY VERY talented and GIFTED athlete. He's the EXCEPTION - NOT the NORM.

    Specificity is a great tool. It also needs to be used in that manner - as a TOOL, NOT "the law", of training.

    You're right, basketball players don't shoot soccer balls - but soccer players do play with hackie-sacks. And basketball players do shoot no-look shots over-the-head from half court; they do shoot 95 footers (a court is only 94 ft long); and they do shoot "you jump over my head while I feed you the ball" shots, as well - NONE of which will ever be useful in a game. But they do it anyways. Why? To keep sane; to keep the game fun - because that's what it is: A GAME. And I'm sure if anyone ever told Roger Federer that using a badmitton raquet would allow him to hit the ball better because it would quicken his stroke and make him focus more because the hitting surface is smaller, he just might try it. And, no, Tiger Woods doesn't swing a lacrosse stick, and I wouldn't either, as a golfer - last time I checked, lacrosse used an over-the-top to slightly "submarine" motion to deliver the ball, with the hands apart - not together.
    Yes, I know that's not what you were getting at.
    Last edited by StraightGrain11; 05-23-2008, 12:49 AM.

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