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  • Level hips.

    Borrowing the following clip from a recent post of MarkH's.



    Please focus on the batter on the right.

    If you would, place your cursor over at the highest point on the black belt prior to hip rotation (this will be on the left hip).

    Notice that on the completion of rotation that the hips are level and at the same height as one placed the cursor.

    I have multiple students that rotate their hips differently. They rotate their hips in a manner that has their rear hip lower than their front hip.

    Have heard from Jim Booth that dropping of the rear hip is not recommended.

    Can anyone comment on why the hips should end up level, or even if it is important?

    Are there any drills that help rotate such that the hips end up level?

    p.s.
    For what it is worth, I had one of my students that finishes with their back hip lower try an experiment. Generally they try to rotate their back hip forward and their back hip ends up lower. Instead I asked them to concentrate on their front hip, and this resulted in them ending with level hips. Surprisingly the back hip still looked to be rotating forward (and even more forcefully). Anyone else run similar experiments or care to comment on which hip should be the focal point?
    Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 05-23-2008, 04:36 PM.

  • #2
    5 frame -

    the MLB type hip action is like the back hip thrust type action of the 2 plane golf swing which is the type of action that results from a quick adjustable swing where the upper body is in charge (in the case of 2 plane golf, arm swing is king). in the case of MLB hitting, it is more hands and hips (arm lever needs to be shortened for quickness, but still stays in sequence in the chain as in golf).

    this is very different from middle out type turning with active hip/torso/shoulder turn as in the 1 plane golf or "PCR" type hitting pattern.

    Here Hardy demonstrates the two VERY different ways of organizing the body to implement the same kinetic chain type model:

    http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...eakingjimhardy

    the hockey slap shot is the 1 plane pattern, the upright swing is the 2 plane/MLB pattern

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by tom.guerry View Post
      5 frame -

      the MLB type hip action is like the back hip thrust type action of the 2 plane golf swing which is the type of action that results from a quick adjustable swing where the upper body is in charge (in the case of 2 plane golf, arm swing is king). in the case of MLB hitting, it is more hands and hips (arm lever needs to be shortened for quickness, but still stays in sequence in the chain as in golf).

      this is very different from middle out type turning with active hip/torso/shoulder turn as in the 1 plane golf or "PCR" type hitting pattern.

      Here Hardy demonstrates the two VERY different ways of organizing the body to implement the same kinetic chain type model:

      http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...eakingjimhardy

      the hockey slap shot is the 1 plane pattern, the upright swing is the 2 plane/MLB pattern

      A bit more information would be helpful.

      First, is it considered ideal for the rear hip not to drop relative to the front hip?

      Should the hips be relatively level once they are squared towards the pitcher?

      Can you please explain the mechanics that allow for the hips to finish level? For example, when I have a student focus on using their front hip as the point of rotation I see that their hips end up level. When they focus on swinging their rear hip forward their rear hip drops relative to the front hip.

      An explaination of the pivot point, as well as action, for both level hips and slanted hips would be appreciated.

      Comment


      • #4
        The upright two plane swing is NOT the mlb pattern IMO and apparently Hardy agrees though you would think the opposite from reading Tom. As you consider Tom's advice keep in mind he has no known students. This is all arm chair analysis.

        http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/...lcp2i01.lion_s

        Comment


        • #5
          Thankfully you said IMO, Mark. That is a bit of humility from you and I like it. Arm chair analysis? You don't know of what you speak, friendo.

          Mike

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Slapper23 View Post
            Thankfully you said IMO, Mark. That is a bit of humility from you and I like it. Arm chair analysis? You don't know of what you speak, friendo.

            Mike
            LOL See a lot of humilty from the twins Tom and Richard do you? When you say I don't know, are you saying Tom has students in person that he takes responsibility for on an onogoing basis? How are those lessons with Go Cardinal coming along? Got the first one yet? And please don't refer to me as friend or any variation thereof.
            Last edited by Mark H; 05-23-2008, 09:42 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              5frame-

              I think you are pretty familiar with yeager. so lets compare some detail to his phases- back leg load, back leg push, front leg block, front leg push.

              you are probably more familiar with how yeager thinks of the upper body action/synch than i am.

              in my opinion, the hips respond/serve the hands, even though they are the power generator, in both 2 plane golf and MLB hitting.

              these motions involve synch of upper and lower body action with upper body in control creating loading and unloading by how the two ends of the body work with the lower body slaved/mirroring the upper body. entirely different from a middle out action pattern (1 plane patterns).

              what you need to focus on and what you have time to focus on in hitting is a consistent swing preparation which you can execute consistently on any pitch/happens generically BEFORE pitch recognition. of course there is some variation depending on what you are anticipating.

              this preparation is slow enough it can be consciously learned/choreographed/automated from beginning of motion via "forward chaining".

              while styles are many and varied, there are universal requirements. there must be a nonbinding grip and rhythmic preswing activity and forearm positioning and an arm action loading sequence that synchs upper and lower body for good loading and controls shoulder tilt and weight shift.

              there is a pretty generic dance with the pitcher up until you coil/load/rotate into toe touch, which is when the pitch location begins to be recognized and the dynamic adjustment begins to create a good impact zone for a given/unique pitch.

              hip action will become very variable at this point depending on in vs out and up vs down and fast vs slow adjustment. so lets focus on the generic/predictable hip actin/requirements.


              this generic part of hip action prior to this is not well described as "rotation".

              there needs to be a back and forth weight SHIFT meaning that the weight of the body needs to go more to the back foot then more to the front foot as
              Yeager measures for example.

              the later ability to SHIFT the weight forward has more to do with shifting the base of the spine forward synched with the tilt of the shoulders to set the spine angle of the torso and assist in controlling the direction and timing of the last little bit of torso load ("cusp"/"x-factor stretch").

              once the weight gets too far forward/you get stuck ut front and can not shift (center of mass gets near/past location of center of pressure of front foot).

              the start of the dance with the pitcher interrupts the rhythmic preswing activity.

              at this point, there needs to be an inward/backward turn of the entire body
              (not creating significant separation which would be the excessive counterrotation flaw) using the back foot as more and more of the base (especially in case of stride where front foot is off ground).

              the center of mass of the body does not have to move back, but it can.

              this is all part of the back leg load Yeager talks about which is loading into the back hip.

              next comes back leg push. Dixon calls this "forward by turning". the inward back ward turn of the body continues up ward as the bat cocks and the back arm lifts (aBducts). the lower body synchs by leg aBduction here.

              just as in overhand throw, the main synching factor here is the simultaneous lifting of the back arm and front leg. the spreading of the legs as the front hip stays UP is what primarily produces the force ("push" using the back foot as a base) that takes the center forward.

              a key requirement for weight shift here as in golf is to avoid the center of mass falling back before contact (do not "reverse pivot").

              keeping the front hip elevated requires pinching the waist/cocking the hip which is part of pelvic or vertical (horizontal loading is the x-factor/separation/twist of torso) loading. Dixon described this as "V formation" and "pinch by lifting" to establish "offcenter balancce". A good descriptions of the "hip cock action" required to enable "good posture'.

              still not much effect of pitch recognition, still not much coil/separation/rotatin into toe touch/x-factor.

              now, using the 4 yeager phases, something must happen at this point so that you are not still pushing using the back foot as a base while you start to block using the front foot as a base. do not be sti;; pushing when you start blocking.

              what happesn here is coil/sit/rotation into toe touch.

              this is when the coked/tipped bat begins to uncock/untip. this starts to accelerate the barrell rearward (barrell loading) which reactively keeps the shoulders back as the slaved lower body leg action begins.

              the main synch point here is the simultaneous EXternal rotation of the back arm and front leg (same arm/leg synch as in overhand throw up to this point, BUT different weight shift synch/requirements).

              back leg push is stil underway, sit/vertical load is still underway, x-factor separation/coil is being actively produces with hands and shoulder staying back as first front leg, then hips begin to turn open/"riding the back leg'/still "loaded into the back hip'.

              the last little bit of push comes from the back foot nonbugsquishin action/foot eversion/ankle extension as INternal rotation of the lead arm prepares for subsequent forearm twisting and shoulder tilt at GO.

              front leg may or may not bear some weight before the active fron leg block gets underway as part of the go("drop and tilt" - drop caused by firing of hips, tilt caused by tilt of shoulders, hips slaved to shoulder tilt, shoulder tilt slaved to forearms slaved to hands on handle.

              so the front leg block phase is the GO phase is the drop and tilt phase which is what finishes the coil/load of the torso with the right direction and timing to unload effciently/drive the bathead which the forearms are putting in charge by torquing the handle supported by shoulder tilt.

              prior to this GO, the torso must be coiling in an uninterrupted fashion and the center must be behind the front foot and the hips must be cocked and the bat must be uncocking with synch of front leg and back arm and front arm and back leg.

              the block and front leg push keeps the center of mass of the body behind the center of pressure of the front foot.

              another way to think of the hip action is in relation to taking a segmented stride as many players do, beginning with an open stance.

              first they step in and back with the front leg which forces an inward turn/loading into back hip.

              then they lift the stride leg while keeping the front foot closed as they cock the hip.

              then they take the stride foot forward by the synched upper and lower body aBduction (hip can progressively cock as this happens, but needs to be cocked by the time rotation into toe touch begins.) typically keeping the front foot closed.

              then they rotate into toe touch which turns the front foot open before toe touch stnched with back arm untipping the bat, then lead arm becoming dominant in untipping,

              then the forearms tirggering shoulder tilt at go as front foot gets down and weight shifts and hips fire.

              what the hips do after the will depend on the adjustment made, especially how much you sit vs get more uprght and how long the swing radius and timing and amount and direction of handle torque.
              Last edited by tom.guerry; 05-23-2008, 10:08 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                Borrowing the following clip from a recent post of MarkH's.



                Please focus on the batter on the right.

                If you would, place your cursor over at the highest point on the black belt prior to hip rotation (this will be on the left hip).

                Notice that on the completion of rotation that the hips are level and at the same height as one placed the cursor.

                I have multiple students that rotate their hips differently. They rotate their hips in a manner that has their rear hip lower than their front hip.

                Have heard from Jim Booth that dropping of the rear hip is not recommended.

                Can anyone comment on why the hips should end up level, or even if it is important?

                Are there any drills that help rotate such that the hips end up level?

                p.s.
                For what it is worth, I had one of my students that finishes with their back hip lower try an experiment. Generally they try to rotate their back hip forward and their back hip ends up lower. Instead I asked them to concentrate on their front hip, and this resulted in them ending with level hips. Surprisingly the back hip still looked to be rotating forward (and even more forcefully). Anyone else run similar experiments or care to comment on which hip should be the focal point?
                In case you didn't know; that is me on the left, doing a DRILL for arm action.

                However, you can see that my hips are level also, but to be honest, I never think about that. It just happens.

                I think that dropping the back hip too much, must come from the student thinking too much about keeping the back knee bent. I'm just guessing here, but when you concentrate on driving the back hip into the ball, I don't think it drops as much. As you found out when you had them do the hip isolation drill.

                It could also be that the student is moving the whole pelvic area away from the plate during the rotation, which would force the back hip down. It's hard to describe, but there should be more of a feeling of the back hip socket driving at the ball, moreso than driving toward the front foot.

                Try that and report back.
                Last edited by jbooth; 05-24-2008, 11:58 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sir: I think you might need a different drill to do what the hitter on the right is doing. In order to keep the bat tip from hitting the fence, you seem to be pulling your hands through with your front elbow in a way different from the MLB hitter. If this is a drill to develop arm action similar to the hitter on the right, I think you need a different drill. The arm actions between you and the other guy in a baseball uniform seem very different to me.

                  Just an observation.

                  Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                  In case you didn't know; that is me on the left, doing a DRILL for arm action.
                  Last edited by heinrich; 05-25-2008, 01:58 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                    Sir: I think you might need a different drill to do what the hitter on the right is doing. In order to keep the bat tip from hitting the fence, you seem to be pulling your hands through with your front elbow in a way different from the MLB hitter. If this is a drill to develop arm action similar to the hitter on the right, I think you need a different drill. The arm actions between you and the other guy in a baseball uniform seem very different to me.

                    Just an observation.
                    The drill is simply to teach you not to let your hands get too far out away from your body during your swing, and to teach you not cast the bathead out early. Nothing more nothing less, but some moron put me side by side doing a DRILL, with a guy swinging at a pitch down the middle in a real game. If I was standing where he is and swinging at the same pitch location, my swing would look the same as his. It's a DRILL compared to a game swing. Kind of idiotic to use to make a point don't you think?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                      It's a DRILL compared to a game swing. Kind of idiotic to use to make a point don't you think?
                      Idiotic? I don't think so. You posted the side-by-side clip, so I thought it was something you liked.


                      The drill is simply to teach you not to let your hands get too far out away from your body during your swing, and to teach you not cast the bathead out early. Nothing more nothing less,
                      Well, I guess it DOES teach you not to let your hands get too far out away from your body during your swing (yours are not too far away), but if it is supposed to teach you the same swing (including hand action) as the other guy in the baseball uniform, I think you need another drill. If drills are designed to develop good swing habits, then it seems to me that this is not a good drill ... regardless of how close you're learning to keep your hands to your body.

                      but some moron put me side by side doing a DRILL,
                      I'd like to buy that moron a beer. Who made the clip?


                      If I was standing where he is and swinging at the same pitch location, my swing would look the same as his.
                      So you say. I'd like to see it. But even if it were true, I bet you didn't get a swing that looks the same as his from doing that goofy drill.
                      Last edited by heinrich; 05-25-2008, 04:14 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                        Idiotic? I don't think so. You posted the side-by-side clip, so I thought it was something you liked.
                        I didn't create the side-by-side, somebody else took the clip of me that was used for an entirely different topic, and put me side-by-side with an MLB hitter to debate a completely different topic. FiveFrameSwing posted the side-by-side in this thread to talk about hips which is again a subject unrelated to the clip of ME.

                        Well, I guess it DOES teach you not to let your hands get too far out away from your body during your swing (yours are not too far away), but if it is supposed to teach you the same swing (including hand action) as the other guy in the baseball uniform, I think you need another drill. If drills are designed to develop good swing habits, then it seems to me that this is not a good drill ... regardless of how close you're learning to keep your hands to your body.
                        I could find a clip of an MLB hitter that looks just the way I look when they make a late adjustment to a fastball that's inside. The drill teaches you to keep the front elbow bent on inside pitches and keep the hands in. The drill is fine. Some people don't like it, but I've used it for years with my students and they hit just fine. The drill must be done correctly however. I actually stand a little farther from the fence when I use it now, than I did when that clip was made. It helps reduce the artificial movement of the front elbow that you noted.

                        I'd like to buy that moron a beer. Who made the clip?
                        Not sure how to take this. I'm the moron who made the clip of myself. I don't know who got the clip of the pro, and I don't know who the moron was that put the two clips side-by-side.

                        So you say. I'd like to see it. But even if it were true, I bet you didn't get a swing that looks the same as his from doing that goofy drill.
                        Yeah I did. But, you can think whatever you wish. I'm 58 years old. I was 56 in that clip. I can still hit 90mph fastballs, and I can hit it 300 feet. Not bad for an old amateur. Show us your swing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                          I actually stand a little farther from the fence when I use it now, than I did when that clip was made. It helps reduce the artificial movement of the front elbow that you noted.
                          Good adjustment. Stand even further from the fence (or get rid of it) and you could eliminate the artificial movement of the front elbow entirely.


                          Yeah I did. But, you can think whatever you wish. I'm 58 years old. I was 56 in that clip. I can still hit 90mph fastballs, and I can hit it 300 feet. Not bad for an old amateur. Show us your swing.
                          What would be the point of showing you my swing? Even if I can hit 100 mph fastballs 400 feet, if wouldn't prove anything about your drill. I've seen guys hit 90 mph fastballs 300 feet with a LONG, arms-extended swing. Probably never did a fence drill in their lives. Your professed prowess is impressive, but it doesn't have anything to do with that drill. And neither does my swing.

                          Besides, I don't have a uniform.
                          Last edited by heinrich; 05-25-2008, 09:22 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                            Good adjustment. Stand even further from the fence (or get rid of it) and you could eliminate the artificial movement of the front elbow entirely.




                            What would be the point of showing you my swing? Even if I can hit 100 mph fastballs 400 feet, if wouldn't prove anything about your drill. I've seen guys hit 90 mph fastballs 300 feet with a LONG, arms-extended swing. Probably never did a fence drill in their lives. Your professed prowess is impressive, but it doesn't have anything to do with that drill. And neither does my swing.

                            Besides, I don't have a uniform.
                            We've had this debate several times before on this board and on others. Some people don't like the fence drill, and some do. I do, you don't, so be it.

                            Comment

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