Is it OK to reach behind when throwing?

[Jake Patterson]

Do you think they did NOT do this as children?

They may have, but I would offer many of those who did do not play much beyond LL. Why do you feel that unnecessarily stressing the shoulder and elbow joints is good for a young player?

[SimiBaseball]

Some of the guys on these forums remind me of a father of an 8 year old I coached many years ago. His kid had this same issue (it is called flailing). Rather than let me work with his son, who had what I thought was big potential at 8 years old, this father argued everything with me. He brought me a still photo of some major league pitcher doing this as well. I sarcastically asked the father if we should teach him a slider to go along with the out of control fastball (I wish I could remember who the MLB pitcher was, but I do recall he ended up having TJ surgery). I vowed never to draft this kid again, although it was a non-issue as the dad coached a Mustang team the following year with a like-minded fellow.

Anyhoo, the kid no longer plays now that he is a junior in high school. I understand he had some "issue" with growth plates in his elbow. Mom tells me it was "genetic". Go figure.

[SimiBaseball]

Deemax
He actually looks a lot like Ryan in the picture you showed.
Mike

Keep in mind that this was a picture of Ryan pitching well before his 1975 elbow surgery.

[SimiBaseball]

Are you talking about something like what Smoltz and Backe are doing here?

I wonder if these images are from before or after Smoltz and Backe's Tommy John surgeries.

[wrstdude]

Do you think they did NOT do this as children?

They may have, but I would offer many of those who did do not play much beyond LL. Why do you feel that unnecessarily stressing the shoulder and elbow joints is good for a young player?

If it's not too much trouble, I would like for you to point out where I said the bold section of your quote.

Thanks.

[Jake Patterson]

Anyhoo, the kid no longer plays now that he is a junior in high school. I understand he had some "issue" with growth plates in his elbow. Mom tells me it was "genetic". Go figure.

I wish I had a nickle for everytime I've seen and heard this story.

The problem is us coaches who study the game daily and been around it for more than a few decades. We just don't get it (Sarcasm intended)

[mightylakers]

They may have, but I would offer many of those who did do not play much beyond LL. Why do you feel that unnecessarily stressing the shoulder and elbow joints is good for a young player?

Do you think swim butterfly also creates stresses on shoulder and elbow joints?

[shake-n-bake]

My son (10) has converted to a sidearm delivery this year, so he reaches behind him quite a lot. I was mostly on board with his desire to be a sidearm pitcher. Now, I am 100% sure that this is the right choice for him.

Eckersley's picture doesn't belong with the others. For a sidearm pitcher it is a very natural motion to reach behind them. My son (right handed) pitched over the top in his last ballgame. His friend was a left hand hitter on the other team, and out of courtesy to him he didn't throw pitches that move toward him. That, and I think he missed the added velocity, and the movement on his two-seamer. He pitched a nice game, going 3.2 innings -1 hit, 1 run, 2 BB, and 8 Ks. He complained about some soreness after the game (75 pitches). That was something that I heard on and off the last couple years. That is until this year. Now, he looks very comfortable. He has a natural, almost effortless looking sidearm delivery that thus far has not resulted in any pain whatsoever.

I think there are a few guys on this forum who have some qualified opinions on pitching instruction. Unfortunately, around your kid's league you're not likely to find a pitching instructor that really knows what they're talking about. Even if you do, pitching mechanics can vary widely. My son worked with a former college pitching coach and he was trying to get every kid to throw exactly the same. That didn't make sense to me. Particularly because their size and physical build varied greatly. Hats off to the volunteers that coach Little League, but listen to them instructing the kids on pitching. The kid would have to be a contortionist to do everything they tell them to do. So, now maybe the greatest benefit of being a born again sidearm pitcher is that it silences the coaches, and the dialogue between my boy and I has changed too. He's much more in control of his pitching development.

I'm no expert on pitching mechanics, particularly as they relate to arm injuries. I have done 100's of hours of research on the net and books and my conclusion is that there are nearly as many opinions as there are experts. There are just so many dog-gone variables. My kid throws like an adult, but he's got a kids' body. He's a big kid, but still that concerns me. I worry about him hurting his arm and not being able to pitch in HS or maybe even college. He'd be devastated. He started out in love with baseball, but now he's in love with pitching (and catching). So, we do what I've come to think is the most sensible approach to preventing injury - The moment anything hurts - stop! We work out a lot, but I'm constantly trying to guage where the line is between getting better and too much work. And finally, I take his word about what feels right and what he feels he can realistically develop over all the differing advice he gets.

[Deemax]

Dee,
Comparing an athletically toned pro at the pinnacle of his game to a developing child confuses more than helps. If a prepubescent child throws like they above they will undoubtedly develop injuries.
Jake

I dont agree with your reasoning.

The for above guys are Hall of Famers. Try this same approach in a hitting forum.

Taking away an individuals actions and turning them into "iron mike" mechanics is nonsense IMO. Teaching everyone the same arm action is detrimental to the games style and play.

[Deemax]

Deemax
He actually looks a lot like Ryan in the picture you showed. I didn't notice this until this year. He used to short arm his throws(from the ear) and I kept telling him to reach back. I think this may be where he started reaching behind him along with reaching back. He also has complained this year about his lack of accuracy.
I am hoping changing this motion will help his accuracy.

Mike

You might be trying to fix something thats not broke.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm no expert on pitching mechanics, particularly as they relate to arm injuries. I have done 100's of hours of research on the net and books and my conclusion is that there are nearly as many opinions as there are experts.

You may be right about there being many of opinions, but I would offer many of those opinions are from those who have not studied how the prepubescent body works and what damage can occur with improper mechanics. The problem is there is a plethora of opinions from baseball types who confuse what makes an adult successful (not safe) to what is safe to teach youngsters. Don't confuse the freak of nature at the highest levels with the average child. The average child who throws like the freak of nature usually does not go beyond youth ball.

[Jake Patterson]

I dont agree with your reasoning.

The for above guys are Hall of Famers. Try this same approach in a hitting forum.

Taking away an individuals actions and turning them into "iron mike" mechanics is nonsense IMO. Teaching everyone the same arm action is detrimental to the games style and play.

I do not suggest teaching everyone the same technique, I am suggesting that you teach what stresses the prepubescent arm the least allowing them the opportunity to play when they get older. Confusing the two only camouflages the real discussion.

As far as using the pro's as examples for teaching hitting and applying it to throwing, I offer this is nonsense as the rotational mechanics of hitting and the stress it places on joints and growth plates is not as injurious to the young body as throwing

[Deemax]

Confusing the two only camouflages the real discussion.

Ok. The real discussion... Is it OK to reach behind you when you throw?

Yes.

[rkbenn]

My 9 y/o does the same thing, but he closes his shoulder and is perfectly aligned with him lead arm, back and his throwing arm. Ultimately you want the arm to drop right behind the rear leg so can disguise his pitches. You probably heard the term, sneeky fast. If the ball is going behind his back, that's a problem. Take video of you son's bullpen work. Can't give you an answer without seeing.

[Chris O'Leary]

Ok. The real discussion... Is it OK to reach behind you when you throw?

Yes.

No.

First, you're mistaking reverse-rotation for taking the hand behind the back.

Second, I'm sitting here watching the Cardinal game listening to Scott Terry talk about how aking his hand behind his shoulder led to three shoulder surgeries. If you watch him in slow motion, you can see that this created a timing problem.