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  • XFactor
    replied
    No problem

    Leave a comment:


  • tominct
    replied
    Originally posted by Baseball36
    This study says exactly the opposite thing.

    "EFFECTS OF THROWING OVERWEIGHT AND UNDERWEIGHT BASEBALLS
    ON THROWING VELOCITY AND ACCURACY

    Rafael F. Escamilla1, Ph.D., Glenn S. Fleisig2, Ph.D.,
    Steven W. Barrentine2, M.S., James R. Andrews2, M.D., and Kevin P. Speer, M.D.

    Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory
    Division of Orthopaedic Surgery
    Duke University Medical Center
    Durham, NC, 27710

    American Sports Medicine Institute
    Birmingham, AL 35205

    Running Header: Throwing Overweight and Underweight Baseballs

    Re-Submitted September 3, 1999

    SPORTS MEDICINE

    The purpose of this review was to determine how throwing overweight and underweight baseballs affects baseball throwing velocity and accuracy. Two studies examined how a warm-up with overweight baseballs affected throwing velocity and accuracy of 5 oz regulation baseballs. One of these studies showed significant increases in throwing velocity and accuracy, while the other study found no significant differences. Three training studies (6-12 weeks in duration) using overweight baseballs were conducted to determine how they affected ball accuracy while throwing regulation baseballs. No significant differences were found in any study. From these data it is concluded that warming up or training with overweight baseballs does not improve ball accuracy. Seven overweight and four underweight training studies (6 - 12 weeks in duration) were conducted to determine how throwing velocity of regulation baseballs was affected due to training with these overweight and underweight baseballs. The overweight baseballs ranged in weight between 5.25-17 oz, while the underweight baseballs were between 4-4.75 oz. Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs. Since no injuries were reported throughout the training studies, throwing overweight and underweight baseballs may not be more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing regulation baseballs. However, since currently there are no injury data related to throwing overweight and underweight baseballs, this should be the focus of subsequent studies. In addition, research should be initiated to determine whether throwing kinematics and kinetics are different between throwing regulation baseballs and throwing overweight and underweight baseballs.

    Professor Coop-DeRenne, University of Hawaii has done at least 8 studies over 10 or more years involving at least 200 pitchers and has never had an injury!!! More specifically:

    1982: Pilot Study

    Purpose: To determine the effects of overload AND underload baseballs on throwing velocity over a 10 week program.

    Subjects: 10 high school pitchers.

    Group 1: underload baseballs
    Group 2: overload baseballs

    Results: 1. Significant increases in velocities with both groups. 2. Average gains were approximately twice as great would underload group (4.5 MPH), then in the overload group of (2.9 MPH). 3.no arm injuries.

    1984: Replication of 1982

    Purpose: to compare the effects of overloaded AND underload baseballs want throwing velocity over a 10 week training program.

    Subjects: 30 high school pitchers.
    Group 1: overload
    Group 2: underload
    Group 3: control group

    Results: 1.significant velocity increases. 2.Group 1 gains equal 4 MPH, Group 2 gains equal 5 MPH, Group 3 gains equal.88 MPH. No arm injuries.

    1986: Underload Project

    Purpose: to determine the effects of underload baseball training on throwing velocity over a 10 week training program.

    Subjects: 34 high school pitchers.
    Group 1: underload
    Group 2: control group

    Results: 1.significant increases, Group 1, underload it, gains 3 MPH, Group 2, control group, decreased 1/2 MPH. No arm injuries."

    The reason underweight or overspeed training works is because it maximizes neural recruitment.
    This study is worthless. Ray Charles can see that the results this study claims to have determined are wrought with academic flaws.

    They include, but are certainly not limited to the following:

    1. the range of the weight of the overweight balls is 12 ounces!
    2. The range of variables is too numerous to begin to mention.
    3. The report does not indicate what manner of measurement was used, when the data was collected, how it was collected or under what circumstances it was collected.

    I could go on and on about this, but that would be a waste of my time. I am taking my kids bowling and then off to a state championship hockey game. From what I gather here I am secure in my belief that overwight balls are of no value.

    Thanks for the reassurance!

    Leave a comment:


  • Baseball36
    replied
    This study says exactly the opposite thing.

    "EFFECTS OF THROWING OVERWEIGHT AND UNDERWEIGHT BASEBALLS
    ON THROWING VELOCITY AND ACCURACY

    Rafael F. Escamilla1, Ph.D., Glenn S. Fleisig2, Ph.D.,
    Steven W. Barrentine2, M.S., James R. Andrews2, M.D., and Kevin P. Speer, M.D.

    Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory
    Division of Orthopaedic Surgery
    Duke University Medical Center
    Durham, NC, 27710

    American Sports Medicine Institute
    Birmingham, AL 35205

    Running Header: Throwing Overweight and Underweight Baseballs

    Re-Submitted September 3, 1999

    SPORTS MEDICINE

    The purpose of this review was to determine how throwing overweight and underweight baseballs affects baseball throwing velocity and accuracy. Two studies examined how a warm-up with overweight baseballs affected throwing velocity and accuracy of 5 oz regulation baseballs. One of these studies showed significant increases in throwing velocity and accuracy, while the other study found no significant differences. Three training studies (6-12 weeks in duration) using overweight baseballs were conducted to determine how they affected ball accuracy while throwing regulation baseballs. No significant differences were found in any study. From these data it is concluded that warming up or training with overweight baseballs does not improve ball accuracy. Seven overweight and four underweight training studies (6 - 12 weeks in duration) were conducted to determine how throwing velocity of regulation baseballs was affected due to training with these overweight and underweight baseballs. The overweight baseballs ranged in weight between 5.25-17 oz, while the underweight baseballs were between 4-4.75 oz. Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs. Since no injuries were reported throughout the training studies, throwing overweight and underweight baseballs may not be more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing regulation baseballs. However, since currently there are no injury data related to throwing overweight and underweight baseballs, this should be the focus of subsequent studies. In addition, research should be initiated to determine whether throwing kinematics and kinetics are different between throwing regulation baseballs and throwing overweight and underweight baseballs.

    Professor Coop-DeRenne, University of Hawaii has done at least 8 studies over 10 or more years involving at least 200 pitchers and has never had an injury!!! More specifically:

    1982: Pilot Study

    Purpose: To determine the effects of overload AND underload baseballs on throwing velocity over a 10 week program.

    Subjects: 10 high school pitchers.

    Group 1: underload baseballs
    Group 2: overload baseballs

    Results: 1. Significant increases in velocities with both groups. 2. Average gains were approximately twice as great would underload group (4.5 MPH), then in the overload group of (2.9 MPH). 3.no arm injuries.

    1984: Replication of 1982

    Purpose: to compare the effects of overloaded AND underload baseballs want throwing velocity over a 10 week training program.

    Subjects: 30 high school pitchers.
    Group 1: overload
    Group 2: underload
    Group 3: control group

    Results: 1.significant velocity increases. 2.Group 1 gains equal 4 MPH, Group 2 gains equal 5 MPH, Group 3 gains equal.88 MPH. No arm injuries.

    1986: Underload Project

    Purpose: to determine the effects of underload baseball training on throwing velocity over a 10 week training program.

    Subjects: 34 high school pitchers.
    Group 1: underload
    Group 2: control group

    Results: 1.significant increases, Group 1, underload it, gains 3 MPH, Group 2, control group, decreased 1/2 MPH. No arm injuries."


    The reason underweight or overspeed training works is because it maximizes neural recruitment.

    Leave a comment:


  • XFactor
    replied
    Oh? So I take it you've read his 608 page book filled with oh so many scientific references?

    "This study may prove benificial to some in regards to the value of weighted baseballs in developing arm strength. The University of Hawaii did a study that involved 45 highschool pitchers and 180 university pitchers. Three workouts a week over a 10 week period were used. The specifics minus distance were used. The control group used only a standard 5oz ball. The second group used a standard 5oz and heavy 6oz ball for five weeks and then used a standard 5oz and light 4oz ball for te second five weeks. The third group trained with a standard, heavy and light ball simultaneously through the 10 week period.
    Each workout consisted of 66 pitches. The control using only standard balls. The second group threw 11 standard, 44 heavy, 11 standard the first five weeks and then 11 standard, 44 light, 11 standard. The third group threw 11 standard, 22 heavy, 22 light, 11 standard. At the end of the 10 week session the first group showed no improvement in velocity while both the second and third groups showed 6 to 8 percent increases in velocity.
    It was also noted that while throwing heavier balls only,the result was an increase in strength but a draw back was the fine tuning of the nervous system to coordinate a strong but slow movement.
    By incorporating the light weight balls the quicker than usual arm movement taught the players nervous systems to recruit muscular activity very quickly. The concept behind throwing heavy first and then light is based on developing shoulder strength before moving into the quicker than usual phase of the arms motion."



    "All of these studies are confounded.

    We are devoting a section in our upcoming book that explains why all these studies do not actually prove that over or underweighted baseballs work to improve pitching velocity.

    What has to be understood for any of these studies to prove that weighted baseballs work is an explanation of why they would work. None has and none can explain it because it makes no sense as to how such a light object could provide any benefit or any physiological change within a muscle or set of muscles...plus the fact remains that strength within the arm is not an element in pitching arm acceleration or pitching ball velocity. " - Dick Mills

    Leave a comment:


  • Ohfor
    replied
    Dick Mills studies.

    Done by the pseudo scientist he hired to give him a scientific stamp......that backfired.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baseball36
    replied
    Originally posted by XFactor
    YAH! Someone agrees with me! Hah.. there really are no value in weighted balls, all the studies done on them that said they increase velocity are pathetic. (And by pathetic I mean.. they don't take into account some many other factors that the study is laughable)

    And yes he does get out too soon!

    And yes he does stand too tall when he finishes!
    What studies were those?

    Leave a comment:


  • XFactor
    replied
    YAH! Someone agrees with me! Hah.. there really are no value in weighted balls, all the studies done on them that said they increase velocity are pathetic. (And by pathetic I mean.. they don't take into account some many other factors that the study is laughable)

    And yes he does get out too soon!

    And yes he does stand too tall when he finishes!

    Leave a comment:


  • tominct
    replied
    Originally posted by RobV

    We've been using weighted balls, but only occasionally. When he started wrestling over the winter, it really hindered our throw training, and couldn't use the weighted balls as much as we'd have liked to. I'd like to get those in use on a much more consistant basis to see what we can get out of them.
    Interesting. I have never heard of anyone saying that weighted balls are of any value whatsoever. I'm not trying to be snide, just sharing what I have heard.


    From my perspective, he gets out ahead too soon. When his lifts his stride leg, his head is leaning way forward, all of that potential energy is not available to be used in delivering the ball.

    Also, I think he is standing up too tall as he finishes. I would imagine he should "slam the cellar door" better, if you know what I mean.

    I'm not a pitching guru or anything like that, but these are just observations I made relative to what I have read. If it helps great, if not, that's fine too.

    Tom

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  • Mark H
    replied
    I would agree with Ohfor, Mills does not teach what MLB pitchers do. He will produce you a LL strike thrower but he won't help you maximize your potential.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baseball36
    replied
    I would agree with Mark, his lead arm action should be symmetrical to the throwing arm.

    I also feel that his rotation could improve. It almost looks like he is pushing into footplant. I think he starts off ok, but then he reaches with his front leg, instead he needs to keep loading then unloading the rear hip joint.

    Leave a comment:


  • XFactor
    replied
    With regards to the weight training thing, I thought you were just wanting him to work out his arms... which velocity doesn't come from arm strength.. but you mentioned working out the core so thats good.

    About the whole "pausing at balance point" I never said he should. I just said he should load all his weight onto his back leg.. you don't have to pause at all during that. What I noticed is his upper body was infront of his lower body. That is called rushing. You want to lead with your front hip.

    Now the quality of the video wasn't the greatest.. maybe the foot stayed in contact with the ground right until after ball release. But from what I saw it lifted right before the ball came out of the hand. That will affect his control (it won't make him real wild, but he won't be able to hit exactely where he wanted to) and it may take a mile or so off his pitch. Not as much as if the back foot would come up much sooner.

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  • RobV
    replied
    [QUOTE=XFactor]"I also think he needs to lift more weights and get bigger/stronger to throw faster. He's a skinny kid and I wish I could just get the pounds on him, but he just burns it off."

    Well look at, who is it... Ervin Santana for the Angels? He looks like a little stick but throws mid 90's. How will lifting weights equate to more velocity when velocity doesn't come from the arm. It comes from the elastic energy produced by moving the body aggressively from the back leg to the front in a sideways lunge.
    I have to disagree here. I feel that lifting weights/strength training with a fucus on core body strength and legs would definately help. He already has more velocity (lifting combined with better mechanics). Didn't say he has to train like a bodybuilder, just like a babeball player should.

    I noticed that he is rushing a bit (His upper body is ahead of his lower body, that = bad). He is moving sideways as his knee is still going up. That is going to throw off the timing and rythem.. he won't look "smooth", and yeah he is losing some MPH from this. Remember we are not trying to get to ball release quickly but to move our body agressively from the back leg to the front leg while maintaining our head over our belt buckle or bellybutton. This will get the pitcher into a good landing position. At what point should he start to move his pelvis (hips) toward landing? It should be as his leg and hands start down from their highest point.

    Also, he is never fully loaded over his back leg. Some people like calling it the "balance point" but I perfer the "loaded position" because what we are doing is taking all our weight from our back leg to our front leg. More momentum = more energy to be moved up through the legs, core, and up to your arm (which is just along for the ride). Whats happening is his upper body is ahead of the lower body. We want them to work in sync.
    I disagree with this also. He is generating momentum by not stalling out over the rubber at your so called "balance point". We conciously avoid pausing at this "balance point" and rather "pass through" the balance point. If you look at video of some high level pitchers (like Nolan Ryan) you'll see that he never stops moving forward (even while his leg is going up). So I don't think this is a velocity killer as you say.

    Also, when he is just about to release the ball (as others have said) the back foot comes up. What that does is you lose stability, so it's like throwing to a moving target, it's also a velocity killer. See how hard and how accurate you can throw on one leg. Keep that back foot down until after ball release. (what Nolan Ryan did was drag his foot for a good 16 inches, he went through quite a few shoes, or so I've heard. You don't have to drag it that long though..) When I say keep the back foot down, I don't mean the whole foot, just when your to ball release, the top of the shoe should be in contact with the ground. After ball release he seems to be kinda turned away from the plate.. I just hope he has a fast reaction time, becuase one of these days a line drive is going to get him.
    I don't see this happening at all. His foot drags on the ground slightly and most of his weight has been shifted to his front side at this point. So I don't see how keeping this back foot on the ground more would help anything.

    I do feel he needs better forward momentum, and a better "ferris wheel" ending that will help with him being turned to the side as much as he currently is.

    Next time you video tape a pitcher, try and get a few different angles in there. A back view would be nice, and so would a front view (you'd probably have to lay down infront of him and video tape him like that)
    Yes, I'd like to get a rear view shot. I just sort of set up the camera at a spur of the moment while we were throwing so I didn't get as many angles as I would've liked.

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  • XFactor
    replied
    Well, the pitcher is a MLB who throws in the mid to upper 90s... and from looking at those beautiful mechanics it's no wonder why. Too bad it isn't in video form though

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  • Ohfor
    replied
    16 frames from getting the catchers sign to release.

    That's pretty damn quick.........In fact, physically impossible.

    Leave a comment:


  • XFactor
    replied
    Well, here are the pics I was talking about.

    Last edited by XFactor; 03-11-2006, 02:01 PM.

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