Okay, I'm puzzled

[Shake Zula]

So I have both Yeager's DVD's and Teach Your Son How to Hit the $#@!! out of the Ball from SETPRO. BOTH of them have great presentations, BOTH of them use great scientific background to support each of their own's claim for the high-level swing, but I'm now really puzzled because... some of their opinions differ in very, very, very contrary to each other

Nyman:
No top hand push/throw
No push from back foot. Advocates 'rotating into footplant'
Not a big fan of separation, does talk about X-factor and upper body speeding up after lower body slows down
No slotting of the back elbow

Yeager:
Top hand throws
Strong linear push from back foot. Says that there shoudln't be any rotation of foot before the front foot is down
Big fan of separation
Slotting of the back elbow

[jbooth]

So I have both Yeager's DVD's and Teach Your Son How to Hit the $#@!! out of the Ball from SETPRO. BOTH of them have great presentations, BOTH of them use great scientific background to support each of their own's claim for the high-level swing, but I'm now really puzzled because... some of their opinions differ in very, very, very contrary to each other

Nyman:
No top hand push/throw
No push from back foot. Advocates 'rotating into footplant'
Not a big fan of separation, does talk about X-factor and upper body speeding up after lower body slows down
No slotting of the back elbow

Yeager:
Top hand throws
Strong linear push from back foot. Says that there shoudln't be any rotation of foot before the front foot is down
Big fan of separation
Slotting of the back elbow

I'd go with the guy with the PhD in Human Performance.

However, as often occurs, a clarification of how each defines and/or uses his terms is helpful.

Yeager's top hand throw is a late use of the top hand, not an early use.

You can make your hips rotate while you push from the back foot. Yeager says the back foot doesn't rotate, that doesn't mean the hip doesn't start to rotate due to that push. The primary torso rotation doesn't happen until the front foot is down, but the hips start to rotate sooner. So, not really much difference there.

Nyman thinks a push is an extension of the back leg and/or a linear slide, and that isn't what Yeager means.

There IS separation, and it is important. Nyman has never gotten this.

The back elbow slots. Another thing Nyman has never gotten.

[CoachHenry]

I think if you dedicate yourself to any of those you will be successful on the HS level. I believe there are some things which will make you BETTER then the others but in the end which is BETTER will be discussed and argued until the end of time.

[Jake Patterson]

I think if you dedicate yourself to any of those you will be successful on the HS level. I believe there are some things which will make you BETTER then the others but in the end which is BETTER will be discussed and argued until the end of time.

Agree.........

[tom.guerry]

Nyman and Yeager are describing 2 very different patterns/sets of "mechanics"/ how the body positions sequence to produce a swing.

Both of these body patterns work on the same underlying physical/mechanical model as the golf swing which involves 1 - torque at the handle of the club/bat, 2- torque of the body (uncoiling of twisted torso) and 3 - forward motion of the whole body. See PHYSICS OF GOLF, summary of Jorgensen's model here:

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swing1.php?ref=

Both sets of swing mechanics/patterns work well in golf with unlimited time to hit off a tee. See Hardy on golf 1 v 2 plane swing.

http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/2008/05/breakingjimhardy

Only the pattern yeager is describing will work in MLB with high level pitching/defense and woodbats. Only this pattern has the early batspeed required for maximum read time and precise late adjustment of bathead trajectory to create the "impact zone" initially/BEST described by Williams, SCIENCE OF HITTING.

One pattern (1 PLANE GOLF/pcrw HITTING) is primarily organized around swinging the bat with the shoulders then arms in the shoulder plane.

One pattern (MLB) swings the bat with the upper limbs then tilting of the shoulders as the body turns more level so that the plane of the hips and plane of the arms (2 planes) blend to determing the swing plane of the bat.

2 very different natural patterns that will confuse learning when conflicting elements of one are introduced into the other.

[BoardMember]

Both of these body patterns work on the same underlying physical/mechanical model as the golf swing which involves 1 - torque at the handle of the club/bat.........See PHYSICS OF GOLF, summary of Jorgensen's model here:

And the fallacy continues.................

This quote, from the very web site the dellusional theorist is referencing:

It turns out that the torque the body applies to the triangle is considerable, but a good swing applies almost no torque to the grip of the clubs by the hands.

How someone can consistanly mislabel/misrepresent references is nothing less then stunning...........

Carrry on.................

[FanRuth714]

Shake---Yeager and Nyman/Englishbey are worlds apart.

for example:


From:

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=256

-ShawnB's old site---some graet stuff there if some of you newbies want to catch up.


Yeager:

The important message is that:
1. Nyman cannot identify when a hitter is accelerating his CENTER-OF-MASS (weight).
2. Nyman does not understand the relationship between FORCE (what the hitter is trying to create) and ACCELERATION (what the mass is doing), because Nyman says that forward velocity slows during the last half of the Major Leaguers’ shift to the front side.
3. Nyman does not understand the purpose behind the Major Leaguer’s forward momentum, because Nyman does not understand how, when and at what rate the Major Leaguer creates forward momentum.

I developed the 4 FORCE PRODUCING PHASES OF THE BASEBALL SWING because my research in 1995 and subsequent publication on the movements of the batter showed that the type of stride (Traditional Stride, No-Stride Tap Back, High Leg Kick, Weightless (early) Stride) were not necessarily reliable in providing information on how-when and where the batter was applying force to the ground. Positions such as front toe touch were unreliable as well.

The 4 PRIMARY FORCE-PRODUCING PHASES OF THE BASEBALL SWING:
1. BACK-LEG-LOAD-the point where the pressure at the back foot is greatest ending with the beginning of the BK-LG-PSH-FWD.
2. BACK-LEG PUSH FORWARD-the forward movement of the body’s CENTER-OF-MASS. This is the key identifier and the one the people like Nyman do not understand.
3. FRONT-LEG-BLOCK-The block and transfer of Linear Momentum into rotational momentum. (Paul-this is where forward momentum ends and rotation begins). This is often, but not always, characterized by the front heel dropping to flat foot position. The key again is identifying the BACK-LEG PUSH FORWARD-based on the forward movement or lack thereof of the body’s CENTER-OF-MASS. (Should always be performed with a flexed front knee.)
4. FRONT-LEG-PUSH-The continued exertion of Force against the ground identified by the INITIATION of increased extension in the Front Leg relative to the previously flexed position. This force production against the ground results increased hip-speeds (Again this does not mean full 180 degrees of extension, but RELATIVE to the extension during the BLOCK.) It is important to note that many of the great hitters did/do reach 180 degrees of extension in the Front-Leg before contact (see Puljos and others). In elite hitters, this represents maximum force production against the ground that results in maximum hip-speeds and subsequent rapid deceleration of the hip segment. This rapid deceleration of the hip segment is important because it results in maximum momentum transfer. The greater the acceleration or deceleration, the greater the force. Force = mass * acceleration. (Newton’s 2nd) In other words, a rapid change in velocity results in great force- WHIP EFFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This whole discussion began because I posted for the first time in six months in order to remind Shawn of the Kinetic Link Principles on my DVDs.

LOAD-PUSH-BLOCK-PUSH
It is based on the kinesiological/biomechanical/physiological principle of LOADING a muscle before UNLOADING a muscle.

They are the 4 PRIMARY FORCE PRODUCING PHASES OF THE BASEBALL SWING because pushing against the ground is a human’s greatest source of force production. (Other body parts assist in acceleration, but more involved in deceleration)


If you want to run fast, jump high, kick far, drive long, throw hard or swing fast, you must push forcefully against the ground. The harder you push against the ground the harder it pushes back. Newton’s 3rd (action-reaction). (i.e. that’s why you don’t run and jump off of a very unanchored boat onto a pier. You can only push as hard as the boat will push you.)

Nyman does not understand or appreciate this and it is the reason why his entire belief system is flawed!!!!!!!!!!

I am not done with the Pujols analysis (and I am using the term “analysis” loosely).

[FanRuth714]

another one from Yeager:

Beginning at 2:30 we have another great nugget. Nyman states that people don’t understand and struggle with momentum. He says “momentum is a product of mass times velocity and that as soon as velocity is gone then momentum is gone.” He looked that up correctly (If an object is NOT moving then it has NO momentum, easy)… but,
**********he does not understand the transferability of one form of momentum into another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (even though he used a fancy phrase like “if you will”).


His point here, that we all see, is that he believes that the linear momentum Pujols created is now gone and that that linear momentum is NOT converted/transferred into rotational momentum.

*******Nyman does not mention where the momentum went or what the purpose of the forward momentum was….??? And we know he does not believe that it is transferred into rotational momentum.


In a defined system all momentum is conserved! It does not matter what forms the momentum are in, the momentum of the system remains constant! The forward momentum of the human body interacts with the rotational capabilities of the human body. The complexities of the human body make this difficult to understand and the muscles of the human body do interact with this momentum to enhance it or dissipate it (i.e. no-swing ck-swing). But make no mistake about it, the elite hitter is powered by the forward momentum that is CREATED-BLOCKED and TRANSFERRED into rotation by the LEGS.
(I have included a simple example of the conservation of momentum and momentum-transfer into different forms at the bottom of this post for those that are interested.)

Although ENERGY is a much more complicated concept, it, like momentum, is always conserved. You could also say, and this may work better for some people, that the elite hitter uses the Energy of the forward movement of the body to generate/facilitate the rotational energy of the body. Momentum or Energy, either way, this Forward acceleration of the body that is CREATED-BLOCKED and TRANSFERRED into rotation by the LEGS is what powers the great swings.


Why does Nyman think that all great hitters move the CENTER-OF-MASS FORWARD during their swings????
He does not believe that it is utilized to generate the rotational movements that occur immediately afterward.
If the FORWARD movement of the CENTER-OF-MASS does not assist in powering the rotational unwinding of the body, what most people consider the actual swing, then why do they all do it?????????????

[FanRuth714]

more......

Yeager:

(I have included a simple example of the conservation of momentum and momentum-transfer into different forms at the bottom of this post for those that are interested.)

Why do we build pitching mounds?

They increase the forward momentum of the pitcher by utilizing gravity’s pull on the human body!!!!!!

This results in additional momentum that is blocked and transferred during the pitcher’s FRONT-LEG-BLOCK! Rotational hip speeds are then increased and the momentum is passed up the Kinetic Chain.

*******Hey Nyman- If hitters can just “rotate from the middle”, why not pitchers? You could have them just stand at the rubber and twist. You could eliminate all those nasty problems that are created when a pitcher moves forward and you could have them Throwing like a 60 yr old retired electrician, with no playing, coaching or scouting experience TOO!

I am sure he will try to change his stories and some will fall for it again, and>>> follow, follow, follow the yellow brick road to the Wonde..…well you know the rest…............................................. ...........


Let that sink in. Don’t close the Pujols clip just yet. I need a coke and then I will try to finish up the Pujols “analysis”






Conservation of Momentum Example:
In a defined system all momentum is conserved. Let’s define our system as a cue-ball and 8-ball. Imagine that the cue-ball is already rolling on a nearly frictionless surface and the 8-ball is stationary. This is our system-two billiard balls. As the cue-ball strikes the 8-ball, the 8-ball receives its momentum and now the cue ball is motionless. Momentum is transferred and conserved. The 8-ball moves along and strikes a wooden block that moves forward. In this new two-object system the block has moved forward taking momentum from the 8-ball that is now motionless because it has transferred all of its momentum. The block then moves forward and clips the blade of a fan, which begins to rotate, accepting the momentum from the block, which slows down considerably as a result of the transfer of momentum.

[FanRuth714]

another

Yeager:

Another example of how the Wizard uses science to mystify and confuse rather than explain and teach.

From 3:30-4:31 We are at a point after the FRONT-LEG-BLOCK. At this point, and as I have been documented since my first video production in 1998, as well as the subsequent DVDs that many of you have, The Lead-Leg holds the great majority of the body’s CENTER-OF-PRESSURE. As those with the DVDs know, I go into great detail about how the back leg is not a force producing factor beyond this point. (again, I don’t care if you buy a DVD or not. They are there if you want to know what I have to say.)

He goes on about force couples in an attempt to show you how much he knows. He defines them correctly as a form of torque where “2 forces act in opposite directions around a point of rotation”.

Then as if somehow he is proving me wrong, he says that there is no force couple going on here. Well if I do not believe that the back leg is providing force in elite hitters after the FRONT-LEG-BLOCKS then I do not believe that there is a force “couple”.
This has nothing to do with proving his case or explaining the purpose of Pujols’ Forward momentum. He is just rambling on about something that sounds scientific.

****The important thing here is that he represents a Force-Couple with the spinning “figure skater”….????????

How is the spinning figure skater a FORCE COUPLE???????? It is not!!!!!! I know you guys are about to throw-up from the physics, but this is funny.

There are not “2 forces acting in opposite directions”

This is another example of the conservation of momentum not force-couples. When the skater brings the arms in, the rotational inertia is reduced and speed increases.
The closer the mass is to the axis of rotation, the faster the rotation will be. The total momentum remains the same(omitting friction).
It is conserved!

Again, Another example of how the Wizard uses science to mystify and confuse rather than explain and teach.

[FanRuth714]

different thread--on shawn's site

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=159

Yeager:

Imagine yourself at shortstop fielding a groundball and preparing to make the throw to 1st Base. Get out of your chair and analyze your footwork as you make the throw.

After you have shuffled your feet into position, your back-foot will plant (LOAD) and push forward while your front-foot STRIDES forward.

Your front-foot then plants and blocks this forward momentum and then pushes against the ground, with increasing extension at the knee (not necessarily full extension).

Note: Focus only on the pressure (or weight) exchanges between the feet. Do not get caught up in peripheral issues outside of the “stride”. (The FACT that hitters should stride more closed than pitchers is also outside of the scope of this discussion.)

***This is the primary force-producing phase of the throw.

***This is also the primary force-producing phase of the baseball swing.
Dmac, it is not just for timing nor is it a timing device, it is a device that must be timed.

In the throw, you finish your STRIDE with your weight or MUCH MORE CORRECTLY, YOUR CENTER OF PRESSURE, on your front foot. Your CENTER OF MASS is behind your center of pressure.

*******The SAME should occur in the baseball swing. When the stride is complete, your CENTER OF PRESSURE SHOULD BE ON YOUR FRONT FOOT AND your CENTER OF MASS is behind your center of pressure. This is NOT a position where the “weight” is “balanced” on both feet. There is a DYNAMIC BALANCE with the great majority of pressure held on the front foot.


So when comparing stride vs. No-stride techniques, think of the throw from shortstop.

The force difference between the two techniques can be exhibited by making the throw with and without a stride. Obviously, you create more ground-reaction-force by taking a stride during the throw and therefore produce greater arm velocity.

All things being equal for the batter, the strider will create greater ground reaction forces and therefore greater hip-speeds and bat-speed than does the no-strider.

In defense of the no-stride:
Hitting a baseball – the most difficult thing to do in sports – right?

Well the most difficult thing in hitting is properly-timing and executing this “push” to the front side and subsequent block and push by the front leg.

With the difficulty in mind, executing the “push forward” without the stride will eliminate some room for error-primarily in the timing of the actions. (Golfers make the push to the front side in a similar fashion.) Hitters, even young hitters, can learn to be effective with a no-stride as long as the “push” to the front side is emphasized.



Players should learn to utilize the lower-half while incorporating a stride.

After the player has fully utilized the legs ability to be the primary force-generator with a stride, he can incorporate a no-stride technique only if he is having difficulty timing the movement.


Players should be taught to be ballistic before they are taught to be accurate. This is opposite of what is taught and is partly to blame for a lack of explosiveness in many hitters.

Training: I recommend that players perform two-handed lateral-throws against the wall to simulate the batting motion and develop the ballistic techniques.


The pitcher is throwing an object at the batter (ball) and it is the batter’s job to throw an object (bat-head) that squarely meets that object. The problem for the hitter is that he must coordinate his “throw” based on the release, speed, spin and location of the pitch. This is why the movements of the hitter must be smaller in scope to that of the pitcher (i.e. shorter stride, less load etc.). And this is also why some well-meaning coaches have “over-shortened” the swing.

[tom.guerry]

bm-

how is your search for truth going ?

even in golf there is handle torque.

lots more in mlb.

and lots early when there is plenty of inertia to overcome to prevent drag..

keep looking.

let me know how I can help.

[BoardMember]

let me know how I can help.

You help me?.........

You couldn't even help your own high school team when you had the chance............

It turns out that the torque the body applies to the triangle is considerable, but a good swing applies almost no torque to the grip of the clubs by the hands.

Just start reading/comprehending your own references Doc..........

Considering your position, it's pretty scary to contemplate the possible consequences of your consistant mis-diagnosis of your own reference material..............

[jbooth]

bm-

how is your search for truth going ?

even in golf there is handle torque.

lots more in mlb.

and lots early when there is plenty of inertia to overcome to prevent drag..

keep looking.

let me know how I can help.

I've given you the truth many times. Evidently you can't comprehend it. There is no early torque from between the hands, and you don't need early bathead movement to hit the ball far.

Mickey Mantle hit a lot of very long HR's (450 to over 500 feet) and he didn't do anything early, with the bathead.

Moving the bathead early contributes almost nothing to the bathead speed at contact. You can't possibly move the bathead faster by moving it early. The forces that accelerate the bathead are coming from the acceleration and change of direction of the knob.

If you don't move the knob, THEN you better be applying one heck of a lot of force from torque at the hands, to accelerate the bat.

The bathead will move by simply moving the knob toward the pitcher, I've shown that. And, starting the bathead before the knob moves toward the pitcher does little to help end batspeed, because the forces at the knob overwhelm the tiny acceleration from the bathead.

I've stated before, it's like having a guy on a bike tied behind a dragster. The guy on the bike (bathead) can get a running start before the dragster (body/knob) accelerates, but that isn't going to make the end-time of the two any faster. The dragster is the source of all the power, and early start of the bike has no impact.

Early bathead movement that occurs before the hands go forward, makes it just like the analogy. The bathead is moving, but until the hands go forward, it adds nothing. And when the hands go forward, so much more force is applied, the early movement is meaningless.

Early bathead movement used as Bonds, Williams, Ruth and Robinson used it, is an effective and efficient way to make sure that the hands don't go until the lower body has started, so the body (dragster engine) can supply all the power to the bat. The early movement from side to side, or tipping forward, before the hands go forward, is meaningless in relation to the end batspeed.

Early bathead movement is a timing and rythm technique which does help the overall swing, but early movement in and of itself does nothing to add to end batspeed. And, although some torque between the hands might be used to waggle the bat early, the main cause of the early bathead movement is due to the movement in and out of the handle, due to movement of the upper arms.

[tom.guerry]

jim and bm -

thanks for the thoughts.

nyman's sims show there is a large amount of inertia to overcome when the torso starts to turn.

how do you think that inertia is overcome ?

Nyman:

"...When a high level player swings, there is a holding torque that maintains the angle at the wrist between the bat and the radius of rotation, otherwise the bat would fall back and that compromises the swing. It takes a longer time for the bat to get out if you didn't do that."

and at the end of the thread, the simulation measures a required "holding torque" at initiation of more than 60 ft-lbs. Again, see bottom of page, sim on right:

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9013