Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The swing we're working on...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Trapped...

    One guru( credentialed person) observation was made that many MLB players keep the bat vertical as long as possible.

    A rear view shows the bat vertical, the scaps staying loaded to foot plant, a tight rear elbow slotting following the plane transition and good segmental separation between the hips and shoulders. This particular player exhibited good weight shift with a dragging rear toe. His bat barrel was actually pointing almost to 2B at back foot load/ hand cock

    His name was Piazza....

    If this technique solves all that and stops the bat from getting "trapped" and enhances oppo power and total power it might be good. There is no doubt in my mind that it is why our HR production is up and runs are up
    Last edited by swingbuster; 03-12-2006, 09:16 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Sonny...one more fact

      Your son has his back foot firmly on the ground at the same time the front foot is firmly on the ground. The back foot should be square but releasing before front foot plant.

      That is a clear indication of no weight transfer, no back side load, back side push, back side release , no front side firm up/ block and it weakens the leg leg extension and its ability to power the swing prior to contact

      If you get him to drag that rear toe through contact...he will hit the ball harder.

      You might ask Ohfer why he missed that. he is the best there is you know

      extend the tee out front and make him get full weight transfer keeping the head over the belt buckle until front foot plant and let him stride. Keep the bat vertical until the foot plants. Look out fence
      Last edited by swingbuster; 03-12-2006, 09:36 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by swingbuster
        ...extend the tee out front...
        You have no understanding of cause and effect.

        This band aid will ruin him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Sonny
          The information that I find worthy is the information that tells me why I should or shouldn't believe. If it means that I must go through and read post after post, then perhaps I should do that to find the 'why'.
          I spent a lot of time writing a post explaining the "why." I gave you the link in my last post to you. I suggest you read it, and if you have any questions about the concepts, post them.

          As far as Englishbey goes... Everything he says may be true, but I guess I'll never know if he doesn't respond to my email, huh? Don't be so presumptious.
          I wasn't presuming anything. Merely asking. Steve travels a lot and spends a lot of time both on the field and on the phone helping people. I know he's pretty well booked the next couple of days, but I expect you'll be hearing from him soon.

          I really don't won't to continue debating who is wrong or right, but I would like advice that I can consider, question, and apply.
          I understand, but the debate on who's right or wrong will inevitably determine whose advice you wil be better off applying. For example:

          Originally posted by tom.guerry
          Golf is a good source of info that applies to the swing. 2 vs 1 plane arm loading info is now widely available.
          Sonny, consider whether a golf swing is analogous to a baseball swing and therefore automatically a good source of information. What do they have in common? Well they both involve swinging a variation of some kind of club to strike a ball with a view to hitting it a long ways. Both involve hip rotation. Both have gloves. Both ...

          Okay, consider the differences: The location of the ball is pretty consistent in golf. Unless it falls off the tee, it is right there in the same place. Not so in baseball. The ball is not moving in golf. It moves pretty fast in baseball. You can swing whenever you like and take as long as you like in golf. Not so in baseball.

          Tom has been challenged on several occasions to respond to these differences and explain why how they are analogous. He ignores the issue and continues to dogmatically assert that they are analogous. We "pick on" him and Swingbuster because they don't seem to care about either logic, evidence or the real world of swing instruction.

          Another example: Swingbuster asserts that his hitters are real sluggers, outhitting their opponents by some impressive margin. However,

          (1) how do we know these hitters have high-level swings? I know a bunch of good hitters in youth baseball that will never make it at higher levels because they have too much "arm action" in their swings. Swingbuster's success stories (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is not embellishing the facts)are usually about pretty young hitters. And let's face it, 3A high school is not what I would consider high-level competition. Our local high school is 4A and I see hitters succeed even at that level with pretty crappy swings that would never make it in D1 or D2 college ball (I used to coach D2 and D3 ball, so at least I have some experience in that regard).

          (2) On the other hand, even if some of Swingbuster's hitters actually do have pretty good swings, how do we know it was his instruction that got them there? He has never posted any video for us to see where they started before his instruction and where they ended up after his instruction.

          By the way, add 4for4 to the list of people who's been around and has some good things to say. I knew I'd forget one of the H-M.org veterans.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by swingbuster
            If this technique solves all that and stops the bat from getting "trapped" and enhances oppo power and total power it might be good. There is no doubt in my mind that it is why our HR production is up and runs are up
            Operative terms: "in my mind."

            Comment


            • #51
              Sonny:

              - by Fungo22 - This is the second millennium
              It is rare that I disagree w/ Fungo. Tonight, I do. This is the third millenium.

              Everything else that he said is spot on. Worth re-reading, in my estimation.



              - by Swingbuster - That is a clear indication of no weight transfer, no back side load, back side push, back side release , no front side firm up/ block and it weakens the leg leg extension and its ability to power the swing prior to contact

              If you get him to drag that rear toe through contact...he will hit the ball harder.

              You might ask Ohfer why he missed that. He is the best there is you know.
              First, I seriously doubt Ohfor missed much of anything in a clip. It would be rare.

              That said, I could probably buy into much of what Donny is saying in the first paragraph above. I don't know what a "leg leg" extension is, but I do see some valuable information in his list.

              And if the problems were fixed, one tangible sign would be a rear foot that acted as he describes in the second paragraph.


              However, simply dragging the rear toes along the ground has about as much probability of solving the underlying mechanical flaws as putting a band-aid on a GSW has of stopping the internal bleeding.


              The reason that Ohfor, Fungo, 4for4, and others responding to this thread stress Posture - Connection - and Rotation to the extent that they do is that until these key principles are consistently accomplished by the hitter, subtle refinement is absolutely counter-productive. Meaning that "fixing" one mechanical flaw without getting at the root cause will simply create unintended consequences and another mechanical flaw(s).


              I understand Donny's point, and I susect that if he were working w/ this hitter, his "fix" would be at a more systemic level than simply "dragging the rear foot." I certainly hope so.

              But Sonny, I will tell you very candidly, what you need to be considering is not what "fix" your son can apply to his swing, but rather, what underlying foundation he can use to BUILD a swing. That will - to an extent - be an unlearn / relearn situation. It will be painful, but perhaps not as painful as you think. And it will be worth it, IF the foundation is appropriate.

              But unless you are a LOT more skillful at assessing the advice you are gathering here than I was - and that IS entirely possible, but perhaps not likely - trying to apply refinement and fixes without foundation is going to be very challenging indeed.

              Were I in your position - and I have been - I would NOT accept a lack of response to a single eMail. I'm sure Steve will eventually respond. I KNOW that if you hound him a little bit, he will quickly respond. Get proactive, get the material - which is seminal and very foundational - a "1-2-3 Primer" of how to build a hitter - and begin doing just that.



              - by Sonny - Thanks for the time and some detail. I really feel inadequate about teaching him further because I can't seem to get any detailed drills that may correct his deficiencies. Are we at the point of needing to start over from scratch? What can I do to get his hip coil and hand load working together? Are there any suggestions for weight shift? In Cal Ripken's book, he suggests a drill where the kid stands on the rear leg with the front leg lifted; then he puts the front foot down, thus shifting his weight to the front leg, as he hits the ball off of the tee. Do you agree that this will teach proper transfer of weight? Should this even be my biggest concern?
              Great questions, common problem. In a perect world, a world-class hitting instructor would live down the street. That is not reality for most of us. Steve's DVDs - which suck for production value - are incredibly rich in content. Specifically, the content you are looking for. ABSOLUTELY will answer your plea for what to do / where to go / how to do it. Theory, demonstration, drills, etc. Everything you are looking for. Including some VERY subtle refinement for when he is ready for it. Which he isn't yet. But he will be, because you care and are approaching it right.

              Plus Steve is available to make house calls anywhere in the country, and he is priced reasonably.


              Now, if you will allow me to take a liberty that should more properly be reserved for someone who knows you better (and PLEASE know my sincerity here) - Get off your butt, call Steve (any number of guys here who can give you his number if you simply PM and ask for it), get the DVD, and begin building the hitter your son deserves to be by next weekend.

              The alternative is to wade through an awful lot of sub-text here, and hope for the best. While I have no doubt you would eventually conclude who to most trust and what information to best value, there IS a shortcut. If I'm wrong in my advice, you're out a few bucks and a minor investment of time. Call it a calculated risk, because on your present course, the potential time drain is MUCH larger, maybe to an insurmountable level. And the clock is ticking for your son.

              Absolute best wishes,

              Scott
              Last edited by ssarge; 03-13-2006, 12:14 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by ssarge
                It is rare that I disagree w/ Fungo. Tonight, I do. This is the third millenium.
                I lost count.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Understandable, Methuselah.

                  BTW, did you ever do the math on his 969? Seems to indicate he died in the year of the flood, Makes you think. Age has value for building wisdom - IF you let it.

                  Best,

                  Scott

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    And I am going to say it yet again . Comparing what an elite hitter does to a 12 yr.old in terms of upper body loading /unloading cannot be reduced to catagorizing either as "1 or 2 planes" concept .And cannot be reduced to an overly simplistic BAT VERTICAL ---BAT PERFECTLY PERPINDICULAR dichotomy as being definitive of much of anything.

                    As I said earlier , I would catagorize upper body loading characteristics along a contiuum from highly efficient to poorly executed.

                    You simply cannot assert as an empirical statement that TWO PLANERS are better than ONE PLANERS. Moreover these are simply simplistic and arbitrary constructs that serve no analytical or descriptive purpose in the context of hitters at ANY level.

                    And technically speaking ,there is no such thing as one or two planes .There are essentially infinite ways that the bat can be moved by the muscle system.
                    How elite hitters control movement is what separates them from everyone else------not BAT VERTICAL/BAT NOT VERTICAL.

                    And "trapping " as I have described it here [and in the other thread ] has very little to do with the "1 - 2 Plane " GOLF CONCEPT.

                    It has little to do with Tiger Woods .

                    I do know Tom never misses an opportunity to take these threads in the direction of GOLF SH*T , but I did want to note here that I think it has little relevance to what I am explaining ----being that I have stated [as have others on other boards] that "1 -2 plane" as a concept has very little basis in reality from a movement control standpoint.

                    I also know it has very little to do with Sonny and his son .[I know this matters little to Tom ,of course ]

                    I also know Tom has quite a penchant for "creative interpretation " of almost everybody's writings that I am familiar with ,eg Dixon,Epstein, Nyman,Lau ,and I am very reluctant to equate what Jack Mankin is saying about "staying behind the power curve " and what I have somewhat broadly defined as "trapping".

                    I will check.I know that I personally almost never attempt to "paraphrase " what others have published. And when it comes to using other sources it would be nice if Tom would "paraphrase " less and quote more .

                    Having worked for a news organization[Newsweek] for about 4 years as a librarian/researcher , maybe I'm just overly "sensitive" as regards the accuracy of the information that is being "parphrased " by Tom. [My sensitivity is not confined to Tom ,but his all too often tendency to "supplement " his special version of other people's thoughts and writings is something that makes me skeptical of this present comparison .

                    Like I said ,I will check.

                    steve









                    I
                    Last edited by Steve Englishbey; 03-12-2006, 10:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ssarge
                      Understandable, Methuselah.

                      BTW, did you ever do the math on his 969?
                      I'm a NT kind of guy.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ssarge
                        But Sonny, I will tell you very candidly, what you need to be considering is not what "fix" your son can apply to his swing, but rather, what underlying foundation he can use to BUILD a swing. That will - to an extent - be an unlearn / relearn situation. It will be painful, but perhaps not as painful as you think. And it will be worth it, IF the foundation is appropriate.

                        But unless you are a LOT more skillful at assessing the advice you are gathering here than I was - and that IS entirely possible, but perhaps not likely - trying to apply refinement and fixes without foundation is going to be very challenging indeed.

                        Were I in your position - and I have been - I would NOT accept a lack of response to a single eMail. I'm sure Steve will eventually respond. I KNOW that if you hound him a little bit, he will quickly respond. Get proactive, get the material - which is seminal and very foundational - a "1-2-3 Primer" of how to build a hitter - and begin doing just that.
                        This is not only well said, it is (in my opinion) the issue Sonny needs to consider (apart from the "debate" discussed earlier). As I suggested in an earlier post, Swingbuster's advice may help young hitters be more successful. But if you want to help your son develop a "high-level" swing, then you're going to have to get Steve's DVD and then "rebuild" as much as necessary. The young feller seems to have an idea about rotating from the middle. His upper body needs a lot of work to efficiently "connect" the bat to the rotation so as to set an efficient swing path and efficiently transfer momentum from the rotation to the bat. Once his body learns to do that, then you can more safely consider some of the embellishments that Buster and Tom think central.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          The talking circle.....

                          His upper body needs a lot of work to efficiently "connect" the bat to the rotation so as to set an efficient swing path and efficiently transfer momentum from the rotation to the bat. Once his body learns to do that, then you can more safely consider some of the embellishments that Buster and Tom think central.
                          I gave the nice man two things to do to help his son. I understand what you say but the kid doesn't.

                          1. Change the hand set..Steve said he was getting trapped with the bat and you say he was not connecting properly. I think we are close here ..certainly for a 10 YO understanding

                          2. Get off the back side with a few swings and time the bottom hand connection with the weight shift. You guys know you cannot have both feet flat on the ground at the same time in any swing...close here for people that saw that

                          We both thought he rotated as well as he could given his poor upper body launch mechanics and his lack of weight transfer but we both thought he was capable of a normal rotation

                          I believe he went in the back yard and did both in about 20 swings and could feel a difference and was very encouraged.

                          Ohfer said I was killing his genetic potential. Fungo said I could not be trusted. Everyone called into question my authority to answer the guys request for some direction. Well the direction was good ...sorry

                          There are people playing decent baseball all over this country without you guy's oversight and permission. I know that hurts you egos. Most of you do not even work with any kids and have not in years. Why don't you tell the man that.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The talking circle.....

                            His upper body needs a lot of work to efficiently "connect" the bat to the rotation so as to set an efficient swing path and efficiently transfer momentum from the rotation to the bat. Once his body learns to do that, then you can more safely consider some of the embellishments that Buster and Tom think central.
                            I gave the nice man two things to do to help his son. I understand what you say but the kid doesn't.

                            1. Change the hand set..Steve said he was getting trapped with the bat and you say he was not connecting properly. I think we are close here ..certainly for a 10 YO understanding

                            2. Get off the back side with a few swings and time the bottom hand connection with the weight shift. You guys know you cannot have both feet flat on the ground at the same time in any swing...close here for people that saw that

                            We both thought he rotated as well as he could given his poor upper body launch mechanics and his lack of weight transfer but we both thought he was capable of a normal rotation

                            I believe he went in the back yard and did both in about 20 swings and could feel a difference and was very encouraged.

                            Ohfer said I was killing his genetic potential. Fungo said I could not be trusted. Everyone called into question my authority to answer the guys request for some direction. Well the direction was good ...sorry.

                            And Fungo, the last thing this kid needs is anything called "rebuild". That is advice for people that need to play soccer...not this kid

                            However, simply dragging the rear toes along the ground has about as much probability of solving the underlying mechanical flaws as putting a band-aid on a GSW has of stopping the internal bleeding.
                            Scott ...I know you get the point. Head stays over belly button during linear stride after a back side load/push or fall/ rear kneed ahead of foot/ block on bent knee/ lead leg extension.

                            What is better to focus the kid on...shift to the point that your toe drags...they get it fine. Your either staying on your back foot or you not. They can feel it once you show them a couple of times. Whether you are keying on pelvic action or weight shift and pressure points as measured by force gauges, you must "see " the same thing happen.


                            Lil Ohfers game swing showed a collapsing rear foot ankle. ( I understand that any number of things about pitch recognition or location could have caused that...not nit picking Brandon)

                            When you get real conservative with the weight shift that can happen with disasterous effects on the swing outcome and bat speed. You have neither a quickswing nor fast batspeed when that happens.

                            Someone said " If a kid cannot stride at the LL level and hit then he will not go very far in the game. That might be true...I would bet my kids career on it if I had it to do again. The main difference I see vs 40 years ago with the "step into it cue" is that we did not know how to get segmental connections; then separations through upper body action and barrel loading and how they played a big part in avoiding lunging.
                            Last edited by swingbuster; 03-13-2006, 06:43 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I think they have also asked for a video.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Scott ...I know you get the point. Head stays over belly button during linear stride after a back side load/push or fall/ rear kneed ahead of foot/ block on bent knee/ lead leg extension.

                                What is better to focus the kid on...shift to the point that your toe drags...they get it fine. Your either staying on your back foot or you not. They can feel it once you show them a couple of times. Whether you are keying on pelvic action or weight shift and pressure points as measured by force gauges, you must "see " the same thing happen.
                                Donny,

                                I DO get your point, and agree with some of it. But I wonder if you are understanding mine?

                                There are about a thousand ways / times / sequences for getting weight off of the back foot. And one of them is right.

                                Yes it needs to happen.

                                The probability of it happening CORRECTLY if there is no foundation to the swing is not high.

                                I don't think weight distribution is the fundamental problem for this young hitter. I think he needs better posture, slight improvement to his rotation, and much better connection.

                                Once those problems are solved, IF a weight distribution problem remains - which I doubt - then it will be easier to solve. Or more accurately - POSSIBLE to solve without creating unintended consequences somewhere else in the swing.


                                It took me three years of REALLY studying the swing and working w/ hitters to understand that there HAS to be a triage process of sorts. Even still, I'll get out of sync when I work w/ a hitter, and start trying to solve 3 problems at once. To no good, effect. Had one just last week, in the cage. Another coach was watching w/ me, and said, "hey she's not turning over her back foot, Scott! Why don't you SEE that?" Not really sarcastic, just asking why I was missing something so basic.

                                Truth is, I saw it. It would have been hard to miss.

                                But in my judgment, it wasn't her most foundational problem. Regardless, listening to the other coach, she dutifully started to turn her back foot. And you know what? She actually started hitting the ball a little better, for a while. So that was great. But long term, she has the same problems she has always had, plus she added one more - she now squishes the bug. Her swing looks a little better, to the quick glance. But adding another problem to a fairly long list in order to make a cosmetic improvement is a poor strategy, I think.

                                Regards,

                                Scott
                                Last edited by ssarge; 03-13-2006, 08:47 AM.

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X