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  • #16
    Originally posted by ssarge
    Sultan:

    Got to agree w/ OhFor on the whole "hit the ball just right to get backspin," thing.

    As Ted Williams said, when saomeone was waxing on this very topic:

    "if you're that good, why don't you just hit the exact middle of the ball more often?"


    Fair question.


    Also, I don't think the pitch typically comes in at "a slight downward angle." Can be more like as much as about 30 degrees - at the knees - w/ a Big League curve ball.


    Regards,

    Scott
    Scott,

    Ohfor never said anything about "hit the ball just right to get proper backspin," that was me and HG mentioning that.

    Also, when I said "slight" downward angle, I was talking about a fastball obviously.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
      Scott,

      Ohfor never said anything about "hit the ball just right to get proper backspin,"
      You're right. What I said was..."Hogwash".

      And "hogwash was directed to your statement that the bat has to stay flat to get backspin.

      Hogwash to backspin.....and all other wivestales.

      Comment


      • #18
        Hidden gem-

        The thing yu observe - flat/ball carry- is VERY similar to the golf use of the word "compression". Golf ball flies longer (with better not worse trajectory control) with good compression. What this means is that the plane of the swing lines the clubhead up well with the ball so the collision is as effeicient as possible. This is equivalent to a baseball swing with a good "plane match" and "early batspeed".

        Early batspeed means thast the sweetspot reaches max batspeed at contact early in the path of the sweetspot (contact relatively deep).

        Focus on upper body loading and turning the hips back some in the inward turn and then keeping the hands back well is essential for this to happen.

        Comment


        • #19
          Notice barry's dramatic arm action - is that just something to add on to a swing later ?

          Doubt it.
          Alos, Barry is interesting in that in early bp when he is just warming up, he doesn't accentuate the lower body much, but as he starts to put on a show, he emphasizs the leg work and loves to crush the low ball using a DEEEEP sit (which is via hinge of back knee/more back knee flex,more sit,more bend at waist.axis leaning back,then driving swing to contact with lots of UP.

          The clip of hi breaking the window across the street in Chicago was on such blast where the low ball (very golf like same way Tiger drops the head like crazy/more "vertical" loading) swing was accentuated.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by tom.guerry
            Notice barry's dramatic arm action - is that just something to add on to a swing later ?
            Show us your 10, 11, 13, 15, 18 year olds doing this?

            WHERE ARE YOUR CLIPS?

            You have no idea on what is possible to teach and in what order......you've never done it.

            Not only have you never done it, you're too embarassed to meet Steve on the field to demonstrate.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by hiddengem
              Are you talking to me?
              It was late, I was having "family" issues and I was cranky. Ignore the tone.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ohfor
                You're right. What I said was..."Hogwash".

                And "hogwash was directed to your statement that the bat has to stay flat to get backspin.

                Hogwash to backspin.....and all other wivestales.
                I agree with just about everything you say Richard, but I'm going to tell you I disagree with you on this one. If I hit a ball so square that that ball is "knuckling"(as square as you can hit a ball). It won't travel anywhere. If I hit that very same ball and try and keep my bat flat through the middle of the ball, and let the ball "ride" up the barrell as its leaving it. The ball will travel much much further.

                All you need to do is listen to McGuire talk. He'll tell you that when he came up he tried to hit the ball with more of an "upswing" and fell back a bit. He ended up hitting the ball higher, and too often with topspin. Then he said he made the adjustment to hit "through" the ball, focusing on taking that top hand off and staying flatter longer. This tranlated into him hitting balls 550ft rather than 450ft.

                I've hit many homeruns in my career, and there are very few that I've hit where I hit the ball without much backspin. We are not saying keep the barrell of the bat above your hands, no. The bat absolutely gets flat to get on plane with the pitch, but you just concentrate on staying through the ball as long as you can and not bringing your swing up to early.

                How many HR's did Mike Schmitt hit in his career? Many. The thing I disagree wth Mike in that he "thought" he swung down to the ball. Not the case at all, but what he did do, was stay flat and finish low. The result, awesome backspin and a ton of HR's.

                I've made friends with guy in camp that has spent the last 2 years in Mexico. His numbers are over .310 each year with 25+jacks. His main focus is to finish flat through the ball and not come up too early. He doesn't chop, and knows that if he does, pop ups and grounders occur, but he tries to stay with the pitch longer, very similar to McGuires swing later in his career.

                Comment


                • #23
                  What kind of spin did this ball have on it?



                  Unless, I misunderstand what you mean by "the ball riding up the barrel"....to me, if you come from inside the ball (don't swing around the ball) that is overspin or side spin depending on the angle of the swing plane.

                  For clarity, I'm not contending the fact that a well struck ball with backspin will travel further than a well struck ball without. I do have a problem with "applying spin" intentionally.

                  I will concede that one can learn to hit the ball in the air. Which means you're hitting either slightly below center on a high pitch (level swing plane) or coming from under the ball (angled swing plane due to low pitch). And, I'll concede that these will apply backspin.

                  I have a problem with the image of application of something just before contact or the sudden change of direction just before contact to apply spin. Even the "through the ball" concept. To me, that is what you do all the time. It's part of the good swing. It's a benefit of doing it right. And if you do it right, then the spin will be right if your timing is right.

                  How many "knucklers" have you hit? I would guess a very small percentage. How many top spinners have you hit? Was it because you forgot to swing through the ball? Or, was it a result of pitch location, timing, readiness...whatever...so that you just weren't quite right on those swings.

                  I think spin is a no teach.

                  Then again, I've never hit 70 HR's in a season. My high is 1.
                  Last edited by Ohfor; 03-12-2006, 09:50 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ohfor
                    What kind of spin did this ball have on it?

                    I'm not exactly sure, tough to tell. Looks like he squared it up pretty good. If he did however, it would not have been hit as far as the ball hit in the clip against Washburn or Percival, where he obviously got through the ball and created the right spin off the bat.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      David:

                      I saw most of McGwires HRs when he came up, many in person. Most were to Right Center.

                      This was not so true later in his career.

                      And I would conclude that whatever changed in his swing was more fundamental than spin.

                      I will also note that number 62 had rather vicious top spin, and "only" went about 340 feet. Got out in a hell of a hurry, though.


                      However - not speaking for Richard - I don't think the question is whether a ball w/ backspin will travel further. Clearly, it will. I think the point is that trying to flatten the bat just before contact in an attempt to CONTROL spin is asking more than a human hitter can accomplish. And I thought that was what Sultan was advocating.

                      Hence my citation of the Williams quote.

                      On the other hand, I don't DO it for a living. If you say it's doable, I accept that at face value and am even more in awe of MLB hitters than previously.

                      Best regards,

                      Scott
                      Last edited by ssarge; 03-12-2006, 10:10 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        In case you didn't notice I edited my previous post with additional information.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I don't have alot of time to spend on this..right now. I need to head into the yard for our workout. But here is picture of chavez swinging flat through the ball, and getting great backspin. The ball was hit off the top of the left field wall. I have this full clip, but I can't seem to get it to open with Jasc. I'll try more later or send it to one of you to work with..By the way, I have many many more just like this of chavez and others.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            backspin means hitting ball slightly below equator.

                            What sort of "plane match"/contact zone is going to enhnace the likelihood of hitting just below as oppose to above.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ssarge
                              David:However - not speaking for Richard - I don't think the question is whether a ball w/ backspin will travel further. Clearly, it will. I think the point is that trying to flatten the bat just before contact in an attempt to CONTROL spin is asking more than a human hitter can accomplish. And I thought that was what Sultan was advocating.
                              That's pretty much the problem. It's not even something that can really be explained or taught in person, let alone through typed words. I've hit many HR over the years at all levels (not as high as HG mind you), but a homer is a homer. I could probably count on two hands the number that were pretty much hit straight up and carried, or that were hit with slight topspin. 90% of them have the same type of backspin coming off the bat. Once you know how that feels, and realize how to get it, you most certainly can apply mental cues, or make an adjustment to stay flat through the ball. At least that's my experience. Everyone will differ obviously.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The ball was hit off the top of the left field wall.
                                Not questioning the bat spin assertion. But given the pictured bat angle, I'm having a hard time visulaizing how this ball could go oppo-field.

                                Regards,

                                Scott

                                Comment

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