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  • metatheory/hitting/throwing/golf

    Feel free to ignore.

    As I have repeatedly stated, I prefer the Williams Epstein approach to describing/teaching swing mechanics,but I also subscribe to an ecumenical (sarge) framework that attempts to accomodate/integrate as much good info as possible from a number of sources.

    Williams had most emphasis on hip cok and similarity to golf.Aso handcok.One point of emphasis here should be that the sequence of the swing is universal and must be identified and gotten right from the beginning (inward turn interrupts rhythmic preswing activity to get hip coked).

    Epstein focusses on more abstract universals and the similarity to the overhand throw/pitching with emphasis on body torque.

    Info on Throwing is available from Nyman and Wolforth.Arm action detail is available from Hodge. None of these apply the throwing info very well to hitting.

    Mankin has very good emphasis on importance of arm action in hitting but does not appreciate throwing as a key source of this.

    Lau (Peavy) also refers to golf on occasion and has good weight shift/arm action info.

    Dixon likes to emphasize similarity to throwing (does not really discriminate hitting from throwing very well) with very good hip cok detail and some arm action info.

    This argues that golf and throwing should be excellent sources of info.

    The most complex task here is to determine how to apply golf info to hitting.This is the best source of swing plane/weight shift/body sequencing (but not on the fly adjustment or hip cok info).

    The best way I know of to mine the golf info is to realize that the greatest similarity is between the "classic" golf swing (esp. Jones - see link) and the lowball hitting swing.See:

    The major ways the hitting swing is shortened as compared to golf:

    -Head keeps looking forward (in golf the head is allowed to rotate backward during the backswing for example)
    -Lead arm is bent/arms are folded up in hitting (which is why bottom hand for golf is attached to back not front arm)
    -Arm action loading sequence in hitting is adapted from the same sequence as overhand throw but is more push/pull/alternating than symmetrical in hitting as opposed to thjrowing. This arm action sequence triggers lower body support/total body motion that prevents the excesive backturn of the entire body (prevents excessive inward turn) and emphasizes hip cok/carry

    The classic/Jones golf swing as compared to the modern golf swing differs because the classic swing required optimizing timing and clubhead control due to using wooden shafts. This resulted in the same sort of "hips and hands" swing as is preferred for the wood bat swing. See link above.

    In both the high level hitting swing and the classic/Jones 2 plane (plane transition/"re-routing") swing there needs to be full/active arm loading and body rotation that does NOT over separate the trunk from hip to shoulder.This active arm load eliminates the problem of getting "stuck" or getting arm plane misaligned with body plane because the player learns to let the arm action dictate to the body what to do to get the planes lined up. As arm loading is deemphasized (in the modern/metal shaft swing) getting the arm and body planes out of synch becomes more of a problem that appears to now be best solved by trying to keep arm and body planes aligned or keeping the clubshaft angle constant.

    The "modern" (starting with Hogan) metal shaft golf swing optimizes sequence rather than timing/quickness/clubhead control. Hip turn is limited.Stretch between hips and shoulders is maximized and arm load is limited so club does not go back/up to far. This has evolved into a "one plane" swing where the most extreme style is the New Tiger Woods/Hank Haney swing where the ideal is to keep the clubshaft angle the same throughout the swing (angle club shaft forms relative to ground).

    The evolution of the modern golf swing can be best understood perhaps by tracing Tiger's progress through 2 major swing rebuilds- the first under Butch Harmon to optimize his natural 2 plane swing/manage getting stuck. The second under Haney where he has gone one plane to eliminate getting stuck as a problem.At least this is available at golf digest with good illustrations.

    This describes how Tiger was hitting the wall with the Harmon swing, exacerbated by front knee injury.Tiger was not a happy camper with his "natural" swing:

    "As is common among undersize youth who are above all interested in hitting the ball farther, Woods jerked the club back inside the target line with a shut clubface, which put his shaft "across the line" at the top of the swing. From there, Woods dropped the club below the ideal swing plane, which left his lower body too far ahead of his arms as he approached the ball. It was the original recipe for the "stuck" position Woods would continue to fight for years."

    One "fix":

    "Just past impact with longer clubs, Woods regularly snapped his left knee into hyperextension."


    "By this time though, that specific fix was being buried by the ripple effect of Woods' wounded [front] knee."

    Tiger felt he he had to change:

    "I felt like I could get better," he says. "People thought it was asinine for me to change my swing after I won the Masters by 12 shots. ... Why would you want to change that? Well, I thought I could become better.

    "Only two players have ever truly owned their swings: Moe Norman and Ben Hogan. I want to own mine. That's where the satisfaction comes from."

    The 2 above detail the transition to the one plane swing.

    "Finally, Woods seized on a unifying theory that struck a chord--the swing plane. "I just felt that I enjoyed understanding the plane of the golf swing a lot more," he says. "I think the golf swing is all about rotation, all about trying to keep the club on plane."

    "Under Haney, Woods is working less on "matching up" the speed of upper and lower body and more on putting his backswing and downswing on the same plane. He and Haney believe when that objective is achieved it is much easier to make a tighter, more connected swing in which the body fires in proper sequence. Woods' swing is also less upright than it was under Harmon, encouraging a more rotational body release that is designed to produce a longer "flat spot" at the bottom of his swing, a classic key for accuracy and consistency exemplified in the swings of Hogan, Trevino and Moe Norman. Such an action is wider and more "around" than the narrower and more vertical movement that more naturally produced Woods' snapping left leg."

    Now Tiger understands how to manage his new swing and why he no longer worries about getting "stuck" or "trapping":

    Even so:

    "Woods is still fighting a tendency--exacerbated by his compensations for the knee--of dropping down to his right side on the downswing."

    Here is Moe Norman on tiger (tiger needs to avoid bug squishin):

    "Working on your swing is the greatest joy in golf. Tiger Woods must be having a wonderful time searching for that one little thing he's doing wrong. I wonder when he'll notice it—the way his right heel lifts straight off the ground now instead of coming up and toward his left. His weight shift is terrible right now, that's all. Don't tell him. It'll ruin his fun."

    Bottom line on applying golf sequences/info:

    TIming/sweetspot control requirements of the baseball swing with reaction time and adjustment requirments make the modern 1 plane golf swing style inappropriate for high level mlb wood at hitting.

    Details of one vs 2 plane details are well illustrated at:

    2 plane swing details are a rich source of apllicable swing detail

  • #2
    Sweet and Sour Tomato Sauce:
    2 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
    2 garlic cloves, smashed
    1 1/2 quarts crushed tomatoes
    2 tablespoons white wine vinegar
    1 tablespoon sugar
    Kosher salt and freshly ground black pepper
    Cabbage Rolls:
    11/4 cup extra-virgin olive oil
    1 yellow onion, chopped
    2 garlic cloves, minced
    2 tablespoons tomato paste
    Splash dry red wine
    2 tablespoons chopped fresh flat-leaf parsley
    1 pound ground beef
    1 pound ground pork
    1 large egg
    1 1/2 cups steamed white rice
    Kosher salt and freshly ground black pepper
    2 large heads green cabbage, about 3 pounds each

    To make the sauce:
    Coat a 3-quart saucepan with the oil and place over medium heat. Add the garlic and saute for 1 minute. Add the tomatoes and cook, stirring occasionally, for 5 minutes. Add the vinegar and sugar; simmer, until the sauce thickens, about 5 minutes. Season with salt and pepper and remove from the heat.
    Place a skillet over medium heat and coat with 2 tablespoons of the olive oil. Sauté the onion and garlic for about 5 minutes, until soft. Stir in the tomato paste, a splash of wine, parsley, and 1/2 cup of the prepared sweet and sour tomato sauce, mix to incorporate and then take it off the heat. Combine the ground meat in a large mixing bowl. Add the egg, the cooked rice, and the sauteed onion mixture. Toss the filling together with your hands to combine, season with a generous amount of salt and pepper.

    Bring a large pot of salted water to a boil. Remove the large, damaged outer leaves from the cabbages and set aside. Cut out the cores of the cabbages with a sharp knife and carefully pull off all the rest of the leaves, keeping them whole and as undamaged as possible, (get rid of all the small leaves and use them for coleslaw or whatever.) Blanch the cabbage leaves in the pot of boiling water for 5 minutes, or until pliable. Run the leaves under cool water then lay them out so you can assess just how many blankets you have to wrap up the filling. Next, carefully cut out the center vein from the leaves so they will be easier to roll up. Take the reserved big outer leaves and lay them on the bottom of a casserole pan, let part of the leaves hang out the sides of the pan. This insulation will prevent the cabbage rolls from burning on the bottom when baked. Use all the good looking leaves to make the cabbage rolls. Put about 1/2 cup of the meat filling in the center of the cabbage and starting at what was the stem-end, fold the sides in and roll up the cabbage to enclose the filling. Place the cabbage rolls side by side in rows, seam-side down, in a casserole pan.

    Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.

    Pour the remaining sweet and sour tomato sauce over the cabbage rolls. Fold the hanging leaves over the top to enclose and keep the moisture in. Drizzle the top with the remaining 2 tablespoons of olive oil. Bake for 1 hour until the meat is cooked.


    • #3
      ROFLM MF'in AO


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ohfor
        ROFLM MF'in AO

        Me too. It just doesn't get any better than that.
        Last edited by fungo22; 03-16-2006, 05:46 PM.


        • #5
          yea I laughed too, but to call someone an MF'in AO on a baseball board is low rent. you two should apologize.


          • #6
            Originally posted by ray porco
            yea I laughed too, but to call someone an MF'in AO on a baseball board is low rent. you two should apologize.
            Neither of them called him that.


            • #7
              they didn't? please, explain? or better yet, from the horses mouth?

              and i will apologize.
              Last edited by dannyboy; 03-16-2006, 07:32 PM.


              • #8
                Originally posted by ray porco
                yea I laughed too, but to call someone an MF'in AO on a baseball board is low rent. you two should apologize.
                Ray, just like everything else----you missed it.
                Read it again.



                • #9
                  leaves ?

                  Originally posted by 444
                  Next, carefully cut out the center vein from the leaves so they will be easier to roll up
                  Just a quick question, while I'm cutting the leaves should I cok (sp?) my hands?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ray porco
                    they didn't? please, explain? or better yet, from the horses mouth?

                    and i will apologize.
                    Do you need me to decipher it for you?


                    • #11

                      ROFLMAO is a fairly common message board acronym for "rolling on the floor laughing my 'arse' off."

                      Inserting "MF'in" into it accentuates the phrase; it doesn't modify it to apply it to someone else.

                      Last edited by ssarge; 03-16-2006, 10:47 PM.


                      • #12
                        Here Ray

                        rolling on the floor laughing my ********a$$ off

                        Now, apologize.



                        • #13
                          I apologize, sincerely.


                          • #14
                            Just a quick question, while I'm cutting the leaves should I cok (sp?) my hands?
                            and did that make you feel better, LClifton?


                            • #15

                              Originally posted by ray porco
                              and did that make you feel better, LClifton?
                              Did you find something wrong with the question? Or just not understand it?


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