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  • #16
    Originally posted by jbooth View Post
    Look at how Kent separates his hands from his foot, and how the front hip opens while the front shoulder stays in...
    Bagwell excepted it seems to me most of the separation people refer to happens in the load/momentum development/stride rather than as part of the unload. Perhaps this is the source of the disagreement here?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by justthefacts View Post
      ...
      I wish I had your x-ray vision ability to see below the skin and of the 600 plus muscle groups in the body know exactly which ones are involved in your definition of "separation". ALL and I repeat ALL the bodies muscle groups are involved in any movement we make. To single out one particular muscle group and say this is the "definition" of separation is absurd my opinion.
      You're entitled to your opinion.

      And since the insertion (upper rib cage) and termination point (top of the pelvis) would require the hips to turn or be offset with respect to the upper body I don't see how separation as YOU DEFINE IT ("external oblique stretched") can occur unless there is a displacement/differential of the hips (pelvis) and upper body (rib cage).
      That's exactly what happens. The pelvis turns first.

      As I said I don't have your same x-ray vision.
      Don't need it. But, as you are fond of saying, "we can only see what we want to see." And, you don't seem to want to see this.

      Not sure who "adheres to/advocates" the "old saying".
      Certainly not you. You have your own invented vocabulary.

      The problem with most of these discussions regarding separation there is far too much emphasis on separation as defined by the hips moving (rotating) ahead of the upper body. If you look at "real" hitters most show only a small amount of separation (hips starting to rotate before shoulders). The clip of Edmonds is one of the best examples of this.
      Ted Williams considered the hips moving ahead of the upper body as THE most important thing. I think I'll go with him over you. And, if you think Edmonds only has a small amount of separation, then I think your eyes are bad.

      Jim you're either getting senile, or you haven't really read (comprehended) anything I posted for years.
      Maybe, but I think it is apparent that many people seem to be unable to comprehend anything you say. IMO, you're a poor communicator.

      You're correct Jim I don't have your x-ray vision. I prefer to go by the biomechanical definition of separation as defined by the kinetic sequence.
      Funny, that's what I base my conclusions upon.

      Sometimes I wonder if any you and others who post "regularly" have really worked with young players with some of the ridiculous comments that I see here.
      Oh, I've worked with PLENTY of 12 and under players. And, many have gone from not being able to hit much past the shortstop, to hitting it over the fence.

      What Edmonds HAS DONE is to create a stretch of the external oblique in his initial set up (look at the differential between his upper and lower body that is part of this set up/stance).
      The shoulders and hips are displaced, but there is no stretch yet.

      And then when he has made the final decision to swing rotation of the hips (back hip joint moving toward the front) and the upper body occur almost simultaneously.
      Key word "almost." I never said separation was huge distance or time. But, there is a stretch that occurs later than you believe, and a hitter needs to make sure it happens by turning the hips first. Again, I'll defer to Ted Williams.

      And as the hips come to a stop as they reach their range of motion the upper body continues to rotate because of the separation that was created at set up.
      Yes, there is some separation at setup, but full separation is achieved by starting the hips ahead of the shoulders.

      I just don't understand how someone can spend so much time promoting themselves as knowledgeable AND is not able to see what is right in front of their eyes.
      Wow, that's exactly what I think about you.

      As I have said too many times before we must always remember that we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing.
      Yep, and I'm amazed at what you see.

      I see additional hip displacement from the shoulder during the stride and AFTER setup, in all these hitters.

      http://firstpickclub.com/separation.htm

      Comment


      • #18
        The question begs.......

        What is "setup to swing"?

        In the following clips being discussed, this is my minds "eye" of when set up occurs IE "Opening to prepare to deliver the blow".

        IMO, opening is NOT actively "rotating the hips".

        It is simply that. Opening the bottom, (as a golfer does when he "flairs the front foot) to deliver the bat quickly and efficiently.

        In both of these clips, there is VERY LITTLE angular displacement of the hips before the torso/shoulders ACTUALLY fire:

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by BoardMember View Post
          What is "setup to swing"?

          In the following clips being discussed, this is my minds "eye" of when set up occurs IE "Opening to prepare to deliver the blow".

          IMO, opening is NOT actively "rotating the hips".

          It is simply that. Opening the bottom, (as a golfer does when he "flairs the front foot) to deliver the bat quickly and efficiently.

          In both of these clips, there is VERY LITTLE angular displacement of the hips before the torso/shoulders ACTUALLY fire:

          The debate isn't about whether it's a LITTLE or a LOT. The hip moves before the shoulders. Do you disagree with THAT?

          Are these guys' hips turning before the shoulders, or simultaneously?

          http://firstpickclub.com/separation.htm

          Comment


          • #20
            A different view shows the hip / shoulder relationship better.
            One's definition of a little and a lot---- comes into play.
            I tried to make the upper line in this clip as consistent as I could.
            The lower line I moved along with the movement of the belt loop.
            tex hips.gif

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by LClifton View Post
              A different view shows the hip / shoulder relationship better.
              One's definition of a little and a lot---- comes into play.
              I tried to make the upper line in this clip as consistent as I could.
              The lower line I moved along with the movement of the belt loop.
              [ATTACH]48158[/ATTACH]
              Note how far the hips move before the shoulder moves off the green line.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                The debate isn't about whether it's a LITTLE or a LOT. The hip moves before the shoulders. Do you disagree with THAT?

                Are these guys' hips turning before the shoulders, or simultaneously?

                http://firstpickclub.com/separation.htm
                Of course they aren't Jim. I think you're missing my point.

                My point was:

                Are we TRYING to rotate the hips as the first move into foot plant? Or are the hips opening "naturally" as a result of the "reach" of the front foot as it opens and begins clearing the bottom side for whole body rotation.

                I believe these clips, and my experience, show the latter.

                IF you stride into opening the front foot, with the front shoulder staying closed, and do NOT conciously try to turn the hips, the action matches the video IMO.

                I think Pauls point was exactly that. No one is rotating the hips into foot plant conciously............

                Someone like Pujols for example, who, because of his no stide swing, cocks the front side excessively inward to assist in transfer.

                In the following clip, frozen at "weighted foot plant", do you believe he is conciously rotating his hips to this point?

                Or do they just open as a result of opening the front leg to clear the front side for SIMALTANEOUS rotation of his hips and shoulders into contact.

                Take a close look:



                The point is, I believe HIPS BEFORE HANDS may be happening, BUT NOT because of a concious effort to start the hips rotating early.

                This IMO, is a "bandaid emulation of video" that leads to disconnection of the kinetic linkage.......

                I believe Pauls point, and I must say I agree, is that the rubberband is winding during the initial load, that does NOT include conciously turning the hips to wind it...........

                I would NEVER tell a hitter to ROTATE THE HIPS into foot plant.......

                Open the bottom to to clear it for launch YES........

                There is HUGE difference IMO............

                Last edited by BoardMember; 07-27-2008, 07:56 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by BoardMember View Post
                  Of course they aren't Jim. I think you're missing my point.

                  My point was:

                  Are we TRYING to rotate the hips as the first move into foot plant? Or are the hips opening "naturally" as a result of the "reach" of the front foot as it opens and begins clearing the bottom side for whole body rotation.

                  I believe these clips, and my experience, show the latter.

                  IF you stride into opening the front foot, with the front shoulder staying closed, and do NOT conciously try to turn the hips, the action matches the video IMO.

                  I think Pauls point was exactly that. No one is rotating the hips into foot plant conciously............

                  Someone like Pujols for example, who, because of his no stide swing, cocks the front side excessively inward to assist in transfer.

                  In the following clip, frozen at "weighted foot plant", do you believe he is conciously rotating his hips to this point?

                  Or do they just open as a result of opening the front leg to clear the front side for SIMALTANEOUS rotation of his hips and shoulders into contact.

                  Take a close look:



                  The point is, I believe HIPS BEFORE HANDS may be happening, BUT NOT because of a concious effort to start the hips rotating early.

                  This IMO, is a "bandaid emulation of video" that leads to disconnection of the kinetic linkage.......

                  I believe Pauls point, and I must say I agree, is that the rubberband is winding during the initial load, that does NOT include conciously turning the hips to wind it...........

                  I would NEVER tell a hitter to ROTATE THE HIPS into foot plant.......

                  Open the bottom to to clear it for launch YES........

                  There is HUGE difference IMO............

                  I totally disagree.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I tested this with my swing mate and noticed when I attempted to clear the front hip (not rotate) and then fire the shoulders I gained 5mph on my swing.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Jbooth said

                      The debate isn't about whether it's a LITTLE or a LOT. The hip moves before the shoulders. Do you disagree with THAT?
                      the debate should be my opinion about why the hips NEED to move before the shoulders?

                      And the amount of movement is important because it does help explain the why players exhibit greater hip movement before the upper torso is engaged at certain times and at certain times they do not.

                      What I find comical is when these "debates" a reduced to "how much" as opposed to "why".

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                        I totally disagree.
                        And that's ok Jim.

                        Here are 2 hitters with totally different loading patterns. Neither one was trained to "rotate the hips" into plant.

                        Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Hips First

                          My short version of the role of unloading the “pelvic cock” --

                          IMO the "hips move before the shoulders" in a programmed fashion and in doing so generate momentum for transfer via the kinetic chain. This represents the"initial conditions of a ballistic sequence", while in addition generate, via "twisting action" of the torso, the alignment of the shoulders and top arm positioning for reversal of the scapulas (movement of bat in swing plane) on pitches middle to in or for the requisite extension for pitches away. On pitches middle to in the optimum "hooking" action is produced. On pitches away a combination of scapula reversal and arm extension is executed with degradation of the optimum hooking action.



                          joof
                          Last edited by joof; 07-28-2008, 08:58 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Joof, while I understand, this certainly isn't what you'd tell the 12 year old and his dad about hitting........

                            Originally posted by joof View Post
                            My short version of the role of unloading the “pelvic cock” --

                            IMO the "hips move before the shoulders" in a programmed fashion and in doing so generate momentum for transfer via the kinetic chain. This represents the"initial conditions of a ballistic sequence", while in addition generate, via "twisting action" of the torso, the alignment of the shoulders and top arm positioning for reversal of the scapulas (movement of bat in swing plane) on pitches middle to in or for the requisite extension for pitches away. On pitches middle to in the optimum "hooking" action is produced. On pitches away a combination of scapula reversal and arm extension is executed with degradation of the optimum hooking action.

                            joof
                            Cock the front hip and open the front foot 20-30 degrees into plant is a cue that is well understood and easily executed by any age hitter and his father working with his kid.......

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bm
                              the rubberband is winding during the initial load, that does NOT include conciously turning the hips to wind it...........
                              This young lady came to me for the first time and when I asked what they were working on --the answer was turning the hips. This is my view of what you get when they conciously turn the hips, out of sequence.
                              In order to accomplish conscious turning of the hips she;
                              1. Squished the bug
                              2. Short cut the load
                              3. And did, in fact, turn her hips.
                              hips lead.bmp

                              Understanding there were several things wrong here this is a pretty good representation of what happens when kids turn the hips as a conscious thought, as opposed to turning their hips timely, powerfully, ie. correctly.

                              Paul says,
                              The debate gets comical when relegated to "how much". I really don't pay attention to how much because the degree varies by the
                              1. type of hitter,
                              2. to a degree, their flexibility
                              3. their timing on that pitch,
                              And I believe that the hips turn reactively. Not that you can't train hitters to rotate their hips better, but that's a different issue.

                              That said, I believe there is a base, a platform, that is established APPROACHING and into toe touch and I believe this is what Board member is saying. (better than me)
                              This base is set more UNconsciously--- due to the shift / momentum transfer. It is more reactive. IMO.

                              If there is no shift-- there is not much need to establish a "base approaching toe touch" nor can you --- because you are simply not in a position to do so.. So they, in general Squish the bug and swing with the arms because that is basically all that is left following a poor shift.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Boardmember,

                                Very nice post. Nice cue, easy to understand, very nice results as well.
                                The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

                                Comment

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