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  • #16
    Cool visual, I like how you did that.

    The frames you left out are the big key. Where he is actually taking his stride, and his head movement is only his head going with his body, nothing more.

    Jeter definately exaggerates keeping his head down on the ball, as you see from where his eyes end up in that last frame. And he leans into the pitch, which is the only reason frames 1 and 3 are so off.

    Funny thing too, when he's lookin' outer half, or when he has two strikes, he'll take that exact same swing, but because he's late to react, he ends up inside outing the ball to right field. In this case, he got out front and was able to get his hands through further. Must have been ahead in the count or been sittin' on whatever pitch he got.

    Nice work.
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 03-19-2006, 08:13 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
      Mark, whatever works for you. I prefer to use personal experience, but it is interesting to see the clips you guys throw up as confirmation of my beliefs.
      The experience of the thousands who have played MLB would seem to be a larger more valid sample than one man's personal experience. Looking at clips just to confirm your own beliefs is a waste of time. Use them to challenge your, and everyone else's, beliefs.

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      • #18
        I'm all about learning, don't get me wrong. That Jeter clip shows exactly what I was talking about. If it didn't, then I would probably say he's an exception to the rule, and he's an amazing hitter.

        Mark, if you learn better by watching people do stuff, that's all good. I learn better by actually doing something and seeing the results of different approaches. My style tends to be more like Pujols; basically already taking a stride, having a front foot timing mechanism, and being able to give myself the longest amount of time before committing. Doesn't work for everyone. Some might have a Kirby leg-kick. Watching him do that over and over on video won't help me do it, or understand it better; I've tried it and I know it doesn't work for me.
        Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 03-19-2006, 08:24 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
          The clip you show of Jeter is after he's already set in his crouched position. There's very little head movement that I see. Just the natural movement caused by diving out over the plate and by setting his front foot down. Mark, whatever works for you. I prefer to use personal experience, but it is interesting to see the clips you guys throw up as confirmation of my beliefs.
          Riiiiiiiiiight.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
            ...Where he is actually taking his stride, and his head movement is only his head going with his body, nothing more...
            Even though there is a substantial vertical drop................but it doesn't matter because his head is going with his body.

            Gimme that ole' time religion, gimme that ole' time religion, gimme that ole' time religion.......it's good enough for me.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mark H
              Looking at clips just to confirm your own beliefs is a waste of time. Use them to challenge your, and everyone else's, beliefs.
              Good point. The best hitting instructor I know made a point to tell everyone before the session that they should look for the differences rather than similarities in what he teaches and what they currently believed. And watching the coaches/dad work with him, it seemed that those who followed his advice learned a lot more than those who looked for confirmation/similarities.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                I'm all about learning, don't get me wrong. That Jeter clip shows exactly what I was talking about. If it didn't, then I would probably say he's an exception to the rule, and he's an amazing hitter.

                .
                I know. I wouldn't. That's why I went and looked at Jeter to check what HG was saying and I will be looking at more video on the same question since he showed at least some video to support his point.
                Last edited by Mark H; 03-19-2006, 08:54 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                  Mark, if you learn better by watching people do stuff, that's all good. .
                  No, that's not it. Learning is always trial and error hopefully accelerated by emulation, good instruction etc. The video is a check to make sure my learning goals are valid.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jsiggy
                    Good point. The best hitting instructor I know made a point to tell everyone before the session that they should look for the differences rather than similarities in what he teaches and what they currently believed. And watching the coaches/dad work with him, it seemed that those who followed his advice learned a lot more than those who looked for confirmation/similarities.
                    The difference between looking for validation and looking to learn.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ohfor
                      Even though there is a substantial vertical drop................but it doesn't matter because his head is going with his body.

                      Gimme that ole' time religion, gimme that ole' time religion, gimme that ole' time religion.......it's good enough for me.
                      His head is exaggerated down on the ball at contact, and his shoulders have tilted to the point where his head has no choice but to drop. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about as the pitch was on its way to the plate, his head only moves along with his body as he leans toward the plate. That's what I see. Maybe you see something different.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mark H
                        The difference between looking for validation and looking to learn.
                        I didn't need validation, and I don't need to learn about head movement from some random video clip. I'm stating what I see, and sharing my opinions that have been formed through many years of playing and studying the game, period. Christ, somebody shares a thought on here, and all of a sudden everyone knows everything and gets an attitude.

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                        • #27
                          I'm not mad about anything you have said. I just noticed that a clip showing the opposite of what you said doesn't faze you at all. If we are all on here posting our personal experience and unsupported opinion, then it's just the Tower of Babel. Most of us are used to referring to video of elite hitters as our truth detector.

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                          • #28
                            confused

                            Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                            His head is exaggerated down on the ball at contact, and his shoulders have tilted to the point where his head has no choice but to drop. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about as the pitch was on its way to the plate, his head only moves along with his body as he leans toward the plate. That's what I see. Maybe you see something different.
                            Sultan, I'm trying to understand your point - would love to learn something. I thought you were concerned about too much vertical head movement... usually this is in regard to tracking the ball and making contact. However you seem to discount that Jeter's moving the head vertically causes problems as long as it is associated with his body movement. How else would the head move vertically on hitters if it's not because of body movement?

                            I didn't need validation, and I don't need to learn about head movement from some random video clip.
                            I posted the clip only because you specifically said that Jeter did not move the head much vertically and I was surprised to hear that as I always thought his head moved quite a bit. Was intended to be helpful.
                            Last edited by jsiggy; 03-19-2006, 10:08 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jsiggy
                              Sultan, I'm trying to understand your point - would love to learn something. I thought you were concerned about too much vertical head movement... usually this is in regard to tracking the ball and making contact. However you seem to discount that Jeter's moving the head vertically causes problems as long as it is associated with his body movement. How else would the head move vertically on hitters if it's not because of body movement?

                              I posted the clip only because you specifically said that Jeter did not move the head much vertically and I was surprised to hear that as I always thought his head moved quite a bit. Was intended to be helpful.
                              Ok, fair enough. When I mentioned Jeter for the first time, I had the mental image of him hitting in my head when he stands rather straight up initially, then crouches down a bit as the pitcher goes into his windup. So the head movement that comes from that is irrelevant.

                              Had I known you were going to refer to where his head ends up upon impact, then sure, it moves vertically quite a bit. Jeter over exaggerates "watching the ball to the bat," as do most inside out hitters.

                              It's natural for all hitters' eye level to change slightly from striding and tracking the pitch before they swing. I was only saying that you want to keep the vertical movement to a minimum, much like as an outfielder, you want to have "quiet feet," by running the balls of your feet as if you're gliding along. Too much head bobble, and you're done.

                              I respect that you like to look at hitters clips and learn. Showing only one clip of an extreme inside out hitter with that style doesn't mean too much though. A larger sample size would be great. Take a look at Pujos on the "flat to the ball" thread. His head remains very quiet, it's only movement being slightly toward the pitcher as he lifts his front heel.

                              Never thought this would be an issue; should be a pretty common theme amongst all hitters. Maybe HG can chime in. Seeing the types of pitches he sees day in and day out, he probably understands how too much head movement would disrupt proper tracking of the ball.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                                I respect that you like to look at hitters clips and learn. Showing only one clip of an extreme inside out hitter with that style doesn't mean too much though. .
                                Agreed, but it SHOULD introduce a question into your mind of whether or not your belief is really an absolute for elite hitters to the point where you DO review a lot more samples as you suggested.

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