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  • Jeff,

    Sorry I misinterpreted your post..I was afraid of that. I agree totally about Intent in hitting, and arm strength should NOT be a teach. But, as you mentioned, arms/hands are important in transferring that energy...agreed.

    Thanks,
    Mike

    Comment


    • In reply to BBJunkie:

      When I come to see you guys next week ,I will explain in some detail [using a variety of physical examples and demonstrations ] what I have referred to as a "neuromuscular deficit " of the front arm that most young hitters suffer from.
      [ This explanation of course goes beyond "the front arm" and is more of of explanation of why I can hit a ball 300 ft. without having the back hand on the bat.And how those who have worked with me directly[and have worked on this quite a bit ]have learned how to drastically increase power output by REALLY learning how to "hold onto the damn bat and just turn ". This is very simple conceptually----but very very difficult for most to do optimally or near optimally and consistently.

      And ,as somewhat of an aside to the above,most young hitters are essentially NEVER given the kind of informed instruction that directly and explicitly goes to the issue as to how to practice in ways which best facilitate overcoming the kinds of problems most have in terms of really knowing how to "hold onto the damn bat and just turn."

      Most drills that I see people doing are many times not terribly helpful in terms of getting hitters to better understand where,why and how they go wrong,and how to pracice in ways which help overcoming some of the basic problems that many have [one basic problem is not knowing how to "hold on to the damn bat and turn"------which has a helluvalot to do with what I refer to as "the neuromuscular deficit of the front arm".

      As regards much of what has been said in this thread, many of the arguments or attempts at explanation of the physics or energetics of the swing [in terms of the creation of batspeed ] are fairly thoroughly confused of confusing ,ie ,"hand torque", "hand strength" [sic], and other pseudo science explanations that only serve to reveal how little understood momentum and momentum transfer processes actually happen in a ballistic context like swinging a bat.

      Moreover ,it is this lack of understanding of momentum processes that leads to drills ,instruction,cues ,etc, that laregly result in misplaced emphasis or focus ,or simply the wrong focus,in terms of what most hitters should be concentrating on in terms of practice and training.

      steve


      ps If you have not worked with me ,please do not now try to further "define " of "add" to what I am trying to explain and get at here.

      Since their is a great chance that you do not know "where I'm coming from" you will only muddy the waters in terms of what I am trying to say here.

      It adds little to the discussion for those who do not know or understand what I teach to attempt to write as if they do understand.

      In other words dont try to interpret what you do not know .Use your own terms ,sources,experience ,etc.

      SPECIFICALLY what this means here is that neither Tom nor Swingbuster know what I mean ---either with regards to the concept of "just hold onto the damn bat and turn" ,or what I have referred to as " the neuromuscular deficit of the front arm".


      And I would thus urge them to not write as if they know what I am talking about here.

      They do not.

      Comment


      • In the words of Moe:

        "I don't understand why anyone would go to the gym to get in shape to play golf. If you hit 600 balls a day, walk a lot and watch your diet, you'll get in shape. I don't think Sam Snead ever went to the gym, and nobody today is in better shape than he was. Hitting balls is the best workout there is."

        http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...411myshot.html

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tom.guerry
          In the words of Moe:

          "I don't understand why anyone would go to the gym to get in shape to play golf. If you hit 600 balls a day, walk a lot and watch your diet, you'll get in shape. I don't think Sam Snead ever went to the gym, and nobody today is in better shape than he was. Hitting balls is the best workout there is."

          http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...411myshot.html
          Here is another interesting quote from Moe:

          Your mind is the generator, your body is the motor.

          The club is the trigger and the ball is a bullet. Take aim and fire!

          LClifton

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Steve Englishbey
            In reply to BBJunkie:
            It adds little to the discussion for those who do not know or understand what I teach to attempt to write as if they do understand.

            In other words dont try to interpret what you do not know .
            I hope you don't think that's what I was doing. It could get our weekend off to a bad start.

            Use your own terms ,sources,experience ,etc.
            This is what I have attempted to do. I have a little engineering in my background and like to think that I have a good layman's understanding of mechanics.

            I think my response started off in reply to the oft repeated notion that the hands act solely as a hinge in the swing. If we stipulate that some, no matter how little, hand strength is necessary to "just hold onto the damn bat", then the hinge analogy is just plain wrong.

            I don't know how much hand strength is necessary for a high level swing, but some is. I suspect that the perception of players that they need greater hand/forearm strength may be analogous to the concept of "over engineering". That is, you design a mechanical device to handle way more force/pressure than you anticipate it will ever need. Would you rather pull a 2000 pound trailer with a truck designed to pull 2000 pounds or one that is designed to pull 4000 pounds. Pulling with the stronger truck just makes it seem easier.

            By the same token, I know that in all kinds of strength requiring tasks, it is much easier to do something I have more than enough strength to do than one that pushes the limits of my strength. I would think high level ball players tend to "over engineer" their strength training so that "holding onto the damn bat" is well within their capabilities.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bbjunkie
              ...and like to think that I have a good layman's understanding of mechanics...
              Like he said, if you haven't met with him, or seen the DVD at the least, you don't understand what he's saying..................and it would really behoove you to understand what he's saying.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tom.guerry
                It's a fine line.Don't get too dogmatic.
                Dogmatic. You mean like making unsupported asserstions and explicitly refusing to post video evidence? You mean asserting the same thing over and over again no matter how many times it's been refuted both by argument and visual evidence? You mean repeatedly insisting on your position and refusing to let someone show you another possible explanation? Or did you have some other definition of dogmatism in mind?

                Comment


                • I posted this a while back, and it may not be helpful in resolving the arm/wrist strength debate, but it seems plausible to me, so I'm going to throw it out there one more time. My "solution" would suggest that both sides of the hand/arm strength debate are right.

                  As an aside, you may think that this can't possibly be logical. One side takes one position and the other side takes the opposite position. They can't both be right. To which I would reply, you're right too.

                  But I digress. Hand and arm strength is important to the extent that the hitter swings with his hands and arms. (I told you my "solution" seemed plausible). In other words, to the extent that the hitter either initiates or powers the swing or to the extent that he uses the hands/arms to set or adjust his swing plane/path, the hitter will benefit from increasing hand/arm strength.

                  We've got a new player on my younger (14-year-old) son's team. This kid has forearms like Popeye. It's a good thing, because he stands flat-footed and muscles the bat to the ball with his arms. Not only no rotation as an afterthought; simply no rotation. He's a terror in BP. He's even jacked a couple. But when he faces live pitching over 70 MPH (from 54 feet), he has trouble getting his bat on plane in time. If the pitch is in the same place he starts his swing, he's in business. If it isn't, he struggles to make solid contact.

                  Do MLB hitters need hand an arm strength? My answer is a qualified YES. I think I understand and agree with Adair's conclusions based on his calculatons. That is, that in the optimal swing in which the MLB hitter unloads from the middle with good connection with timing and swing plane perfectly adjusted to make contact with a pitch arriving at the exact time and location anticipated by his neuromuscular system, hand and arm strenght is not a factor.

                  And yet, how many times does that happen? How many times does the hitter get to unload his best swing on a pitch he has timed perfectly and which arrives on the exact plane his swing begins? I would speculate (I admit it) that it doesn't happen that much. It is why the pitchers change speeds and locations.

                  So I would suggest that to the degree that the hitter must make even the most minute adjustments or compensatons by using the hands and arms to either adjust the swing plane or power the swing when he is fooled in his timing of the pitch, to that degree hand and arm strength are important.

                  We've seen MLB hitters get fooled, lose connection and still hit the ball out of the park with what appears to be with their wrists. Sometimes they are really fooled, and more often they are off by only a little. Either way, the swing is not optimal for that pitch and their arms are compensating. The same is true when a hitter is jammed or they have to reach.

                  Even though I agree that hand and arm strength is not a factor in the optimal swing on the optimal pitch (as described above), it seems plausible to me that hand/arm strength would come into play and benefit the hitter more often than we PCR cultists might think.
                  Last edited by fungo22; 03-26-2006, 10:09 AM.

                  Comment


                  • BB my comments were not directed at you . I was simply suggesting to you that I am reasonably sure that a number of questions that have been talked about here will be talked about in depth and explained in a number of ways ,ie the energetics of the swing will be described and the typical ways that young hitters lose momentum will be described and explained.



                    As regards the term "hand strength ": The more appropriate term would be "grip strength" .

                    Grip strength involves not just the muscles of the hand ,or forearms ,but would include muscles all the way up the arms to the shoulders [a very rapid squeezing of the hand as hard and fast as possible would activate many muscles ----from hand to the scapular complex.]

                    As Mel Siff has emphasized ALL movement----even relatively simple movement---involves a "symphony of muscle action" .

                    Muscles ----and appendages like the hand----do not move in isolation in ther context of almost any type of movement.

                    For example ,if I had a 45 olympic weight held out away from my body [arms essentially straight /elbows locked out ] and I let it drop out of my hands and then quickly caught it [arms remaining straight the entire time approx. .3 seconds] trying to stabilize instantly, would this be a function of "hand strength" ? [whatever that means].

                    Or would it be a function of "grip strength"-----which is really a function of the rapid ["reactive"] contractile force of the entire hand to shoulder complex?

                    And does not this explanation of "grip strength" seemed more related to swinging a bat [and the muscle action involved in linking the bat to the body] than thoughts about "hand strength" [whatever that is ]?

                    Meaning that in the context of potential factors involved in either bat drag or bat lag [or in the context of factors involved in momentum transfer] is not the above example of "reactive strength " coupled with the more accurate functional understanding of "grip strength " more explanatory than "hand strength" [whatever that means]?

                    In other words strength is important , speed -strength and reactive strength matters even more [in the context of a ballistic activity like hitting ] ,and all sporting movements should be considered a systemic [ in this case bat and body as a unitary system] process .And the movement --and the muscle action that creates the movement--- should be understood as synergistic.

                    All of the above suggests why I think "hand strength" [whatever that means] lacks "explanatory power"---and is a poor way to describe or explain anything having to do with swinging a bat.


                    By the way ,I would like to credit Mike Young [at Elite Track .com /Human Performance Consultants for the idea of body and implement as a "unitary system" [he had an article on hammer throwing in which he used this frame of reference].

                    He is a consultant for the US Olympic Track And Field team as a biomechanist and --------you guessed it -----as an exercise specialist, ie., he also has a "trainers perspective ."


                    steve

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Steve Englishbey
                      By the way ,I would like to credit Mike Young [at Elite Track .com /Human Performance Consultants for the idea of body and implement as a "unitary system" [he had an article on hammer throwing in which he used this frame of reference].
                      Who cares? Why don't you start a thread on the transfer and application of hammer throwing research and instruction to swinging a bat?

                      Comment


                      • darn fine

                        Ssarge:
                        Re post #121: Sir I teach and evaluate writing for a living and my man that was one fine piece. I find your logos and pathos to be outstanding (not a common occurence)... a heckuva post on several levels.... Just wanted to shout that out. (still reserve the right ridicule or make fun of you in some other way tomorrow

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TrojanSkipper
                          Ssarge:
                          Re post #121: that was one fine piece. I find your logos and pathos to be outstanding (not a common occurence)... a heckuva post on several levels... (still reserve the right ridicule or make fun of you in some other way tomorrow
                          I very much agree, but reserve the same right.

                          Comment


                          • TrojanSkipper:

                            Thank you.

                            I'm not sure what logos and pathos are, but if I incorporate them correctly, I am pleased.

                            Naturally, I look forward to tomorrow's ridicule.



                            Fungo:

                            It goes without saying that no authority in the physical universe could abrogate your right (or intention) to ridicule me tomorrow. As Steve Martin said, "some guys [you] have a way with words, and some guys. . .don't. . .have way."


                            Much appreciate the very kind words, guys. Means a good deal to me,

                            Scott
                            Last edited by ssarge; 03-25-2006, 09:54 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by fungo22
                              Who cares? Why don't you start a thread on the transfer and application of hammer throwing research and instruction to swinging a bat?
                              Or better yet, why don't you go start your own forum?

                              Comment


                              • Man, you need to practice more!! You hit plenty of fungo over many years, you get good at hitting with the top hand arm.
                                I'm a crappy fungo hitter. I am stronger in my left arm then my right, was naturally left-handed, and had my right arm in a cast for almost a year (two consecutive bad breaks) at an age when I was just learning to do some things athletic. So I learned to do some things LH, and others Rh. Today, I'm kind of ambidextrous (in the sense that I can shoot an airball w/ either hand).

                                Anyway, I bat left and throw right. So I can't stand up there like most guys with a mitt on my left hand and hitting fungos w/ my right.

                                Sure looks cool when you guys do that, though.


                                That said, it IS illustrative to watch Cletus hit a ball 300' off a Tee w/ just his bottom hand. He can't do it nearly as far with th other hand. And I'd be surprised if anyone else can, either.


                                How does the HS team look, Mike?

                                Best regards,

                                Scott

                                Comment

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