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  • Originally posted by tom guerry
    Epstein has the best model of high ball adjustment. It is based on lots of experience that is in agreement with Williams thoughts on how to "get on top" with the belly-up make history on the inside type of swing.

    The late adjustment is primarily via "shoulder tilt".

    The shoulders will be more level when tilting IF the back shoulder is elevated.

    For high ball,the back shoulder needs to get up (or for high heat better already BE up - as in Pujols hand position in stance,for example or get up in time after hand drop/hitch as in others).

    Then as Epstein emphasizes, the more level shoulders will force weight more forward,as the rear shoulder position/action "FORCES"/induces/synchs with less back knee hinge (back leg works as hinge at this point in swing,any turning of the back leg is via hip turn which is initiated from the front which has been prepared for by virtue of the front leg rotating open in the front hip sockt in the rubber band winding phase).

    The rotational axis takes longer to get more upright with more forward weight shift which is why high heat can be hard to catch up to.

    Hitters who want to muscle up and hit with a (usually) dominant back arm tend to lean back (more and more as time goes on due to innate preference for "top hand dominance") and uppercut and can not catch up to high heat/get taken up the ladder.

    When they start uppercutting too much,they need to get back in the envelope by "getting more on top".This was one of Williams main approaches to slump busting.

    This is commonly felt as getting the top hand up/keeping it up. The top hand should keep its relationship with the back shoulder which is how this cue tends to work.

    Low ball and inside location require less forward weight shift.



    The weight shift for in vs out is controlled more by how the swing radius is set which is related to how much the lead arm is stretched earier in the swing,pretty much done by heel drop time (drop and tilt).



    The the "drop and tilt" will finish adjustment (tilt of shoulders creates more or less upright/forard tilt of axis) by how shoulders tilt as they resist turning open with the hips.

    Degree of "sit"/ "vertical load" is maximum for low ball/axis leaned back type swings, but some vertical load is a part of every good swing. This is why "posture"/"spine angle is not a very good description of the adjustment process. Some degree of sit is necessary for all good swings, BUT the idea is NOT to get the spine angle right early on and make "one move".Instead, the idea is to always load well and anticipate adjusting as location is recognized.

    Swing radius is set early for inside,and "sit" is unterrupted early for high ball.

    Swing needs to be though of as supporting late on the fly adjustment and "early batspeed".
    Tom, don't you get tired of posting the same thing over and over? Post clips.

    Comment


    • Greg-

      I find good evidence to back up most of the aspects of the model I have described.One particularly good database is Zig's motionanalysis which directly supports most of the observations I have made here concerning poor segmental whipping ("speed gains"), premature rotation of the back foot (goes alomg with lack of knee spread,worsened it appears by whatever cues many use here along the lines of turn front hip into back, close front foot,etc).

      I guess you just ignore that kind of data.

      Here is more from Zig related to strength (ZIg has much more of a "trainer's approach" than I do,you should like this stuff):

      http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/9891.html

      Zig has much useful info posted at batspeed from late 02 and early 03 in spite of tirades from "Oreally and company".

      Comment


      • Steve Englishbey,

        As regards the term "hand strength ": The more appropriate term would be "grip strength" .
        Is it your position then, that when trying to hit, the hands are only used for gripping?
        If no, then what else?

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        • Reread his post. Please.

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          • thanks for the advice. i have. i'd still appreciate an answer to the question/questions?

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            • your opinion?

              Is it your position then, that when trying to hit, the hands are only used for gripping?
              If no, then what else?
              Ray, what is your opinion on the hands?

              LClifton

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              • tom

                Originally posted by tom guerry
                Zig has much useful info posted at batspeed from late 02 and early 03 in spite of tirades from "Oreally and company
                It seems to me if his "program" was so danged effective he would be able to teach / or have applied his learned movements to the girls he has coached.
                Arguably, some of the worst teams in their age division. Coached by Zig himself.

                LClifton

                Comment


                • LClifton,

                  i believe they are used for more than gripping.
                  what do you believe?

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                  • Originally posted by LClifton
                    It seems to me if his "program" was so danged effective he would be able to teach / or have applied his learned movements to the girls he has coached.
                    Arguably, some of the worst teams in their age division. Coached by Zig himself.

                    LClifton
                    Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. You are right on the money. An absolute abomination. Talk about snake oil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tom.guerry
                      I find good evidence to back up most of the aspects of the model I have described.
                      I can't argue with whether you find it or not. My position is that you don't present it.

                      One particularly good database is Zig's motionanalysis which directly supports most of the observations I have made here concerning poor segmental whipping ("speed gains"),
                      Yes, Zigler's stuff supports what you say about segmented rotation. The problem is that no one that I know of is disputing that high-level swings are sequentially segmented. So you are offering evidence for something that we already agree with.
                      premature rotation of the back foot (goes alomg with lack of knee spread,worsened it appears by whatever cues many use here along the lines of turn front hip into back, close front foot,etc).
                      This is pretty typical of the kind of "evidence" you present. First of all, we don't teach rotating the back foot and rotation of the back foot is irrelevant to the swing we teach. Second, whether the irrelevant phenomenon is worsened by cues such as "turning front hip into back" (which is not one that I have heard of) or "closing the front foot" is not something Zigler's motion analyis can say anything about. In other words, your conclusions about the "cues" are irrelevant to the motion analysis evidence.

                      I guess you just ignore that kind of data.
                      Well, Tom, once again that is not entirely accurate. We had a 10-page discussion on your theories on Shawn Bell's site. At the end of that discussion, you posted the following:

                      Originally posted by tom guerry on Shawn Bell's site

                      I am off on vacation for 10 days
                      so you have a guaranteed break from my blather ...

                      Zig's technology is as direct a measurement of good sequenced speed gains as there is. Jack's point is deceleration comes from good coil dynamics of the DISTAL segments,not by trying to stop the proximal segments.

                      In my opinion,arm action focus is necessary to create this,which is a VERY different approach from the Nyman one,apparently.

                      You still need to turn the hips as quickly as possible,but if you get the arm action/upper body/distal sequence right,then you will end up with the Williams body at 80-85%,hands at 100%.

                      http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10593.html
                      I read the various motion analyses and concluded that it did not support anything that I had not already conceded. Most of your comments cited in the above post were your own theorizing about how to create optimal sequencing and were irrelevant to the motion analysis itself. I'm not sure why you introduced it. And since you introduced it just before leaving for a 10-day vacation, I decided not to hang around and wait for you to get back just to restart the debate and point out that your evidence was irrelevant to anything still at issue. I wouldn't call that "ignoring" your "evidence." First, I didn't ignore it. Second, it wasn't evidence.

                      Here is more from Zig related to strength (ZIg has much more of a "trainer's approach" than I do, you should like this stuff):
                      I like it all right. It is a lot like Yeager's stuff with the same shortcomings: It is concerned with measurments and angles. It doesn't tell you what muscles are making it happen.

                      Zig has much useful info posted at batspeed from late 02 and early 03 in spite of tirades from "Oreally and company".
                      So you expect us to go root around in the archives at batspeed.com to dig up motion analysis data that is "useful" to support your "universal sequence" but doesn't?

                      Comment


                      • Based on what Zig Zigler has written at Batspeed and elsewhere I would argue that he most certainly does NOT have a "trainers perspective ",ie., he does not have an orientation that involves an understanding of functional anatomy and kinesiology ,aspects of motor control/motor theory, in the specific context of loading patterns and movement of young hitters.Nowhere have I seen any orientation towards what could be described as ,"special strength" ,"specific strength", "in between training " [a term that both myself and John Casler have used to similarly descibe how to train to create more effective movement [John is a trainer and a regular contributor to the Supertraining website and whom I consider one of the most intelligent people I know in understanding how the trunk functions in ballistic activities and --and was a world class discus thrower in high school.]I have seen nothing from Zig Zigler that could be classified as "technique building"----a term used by the very well known and respected Michael Yessis ,to describe how to train in ways that facilitate more effective movement,etc., et al.

                        All of the above mentioned are all professionally involved in the APPLICATION of applied science to develop more effective methods to train athletes.

                        Although they all have a very good understanding of conceptual and technical issues having to do with physics /biomechanics ,their main focus and contribution involves the application of methods and understandings that are applied directly to athletes and preformance enhancement and development.


                        There is no evidence that I can find that would place Zig Zigler in the above catagory ;has he not offered anything that I have seen that goes beyond analysis ---analysis that as Paul and "oreally" [Paul ] pointed out in numerous ways was quite dubious in any number of ways [and Paul's criticisms were valid in that they were no different than any number of sources that I could readily point towards that would offer very similar criticisms.]

                        One of Paul's criticisms involved the rather absurd notion that Zig"s "analysis" of Mark Mcguire was that he was NOT BALANCED when he swung.

                        [And as usual Tom ,your blatent dislike of Paul Nyman clouds your thinking as regards Pauls criticism of some of what Zig Zigler wrote on Batspeed. Or as is probably also the case you do not have a very good working understanding of sports biomechanics as they apply to practical applications [working with humans directly].

                        And of course your bias is also starting to show against any kinds of methods other than your own mostly whimsical ideas about teaching kids hitting ,or other ideas that do not come from golf.I say bias here because you have absolutely know evidence whatsoever that your approach [if one even can call it that] has any validity.You have provided zero evidence over a five year period.



                        Tom if you really understood what I have described as "the trainers perspective " you would better understand exactly why you should not attempt to lump those who use relatively simple physics ,or who use motion analysis[for purely analytical pursuits] ,with those who are using a variety of sources to TRAIN athletes ----a big part of which involves understanding movement and how to "get at " creating more effective movement.


                        Using motion analysis to say to someone [as an example of purely analytical pursuits]"well see at .023657 seconds you decelerated and you need to wait .444567 seconds before you decelerate ," has very little practical relevance in terms of getting someone to create more effective momentum/momentum transfer in the context of less than 1 second .


                        steve

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                        • And to answer Ray here ,I would say that yes ,I do believe the "hands "[fingers and palms] do not do anything other than hold onto the bat.





                          steve

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                          • thanks Steve, for your answer. it certainly appears as though we do have different opinions here.

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                            • Zig's point is that his technology lets the coach know what the batter is actually doing. It's up to the coach to use the info well.That's at least a 2 edged sword of course.

                              I would think you would be very interested in the prematurem back foot rotation issue and how to fix that greg.

                              Why don't you use the Nyman "discovery approach" and read Zig's stuff yourself and figure out what it means rather than have me explain it to you (again) ?

                              Hands arms are not just along for the ride. Wrong sequencing is a major aspect of the neuromuscular deficit. That's why I would swing a lot with "good feedback" rather than go to the gym.

                              Comment


                              • Clips please.

                                Comment

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