Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flicking the wrists to contact

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    A very long process that could be shortened IF the right instruction were given.
    During every era ( including yours) the quality of instruction of the time was thought to be the best there was. Your experiencing NO different in your walk with your son. Nothing has changed in that regard.

    You will look back and question some of this...we all do

    Comment


    • #32
      IF MLB hitters have significant mechanical characteristics in common with each other - and I think we all agree that they do - that is MEANINGFUL evidence that trial and error is a bigger contributor than instruction.

      Because we all know how different are the instructional influences to which a kid is exposed.

      There is no way that ANYONE who makes it to the Bigs had consistent hitting instruction throughout his life. Or even quality hitting instruction throughout his life. If he is lucky, he had SINCERE hitting instruction throughout his life.

      HG has told us - and this is consistent when talking to all ballplayers - that there is not even consistency in quality of instruction - much less uniformity of message - among professional instructors. Even among MLB instructors.

      And yet, the hitters demonstrate remarkable consistency. They are also fairly uniformly consistent in that they aren't greatly influenced by their current MLB hitting instructors. At least not in the area of mechanics. Right?

      The reason for the remarkable consistency is because it works.

      And it HAS to have been developed through either emulation or trial-and-error.

      I just don't see any other logical explanation.


      PERFECT instruction would not eliminate the need for trial-and-error learning, in my mind. Becasue elite hitters have better than most people learned to do an UNNATURAL thing when they hit. Which is to NOT use their arms to swing. But perfect instruction WOULD probably significantly shorten the trial-and-error process.

      Regards,

      Scott
      Last edited by ssarge; 03-19-2006, 07:17 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Surely neither HG or Swingbuster is defending the history of baseball hitting instruction.

        It is clearly about 30 years or more behind the instruction level of all the other major sports.

        The "good ole boy" network benefited from tens millions of kids who wanted to play, trial and erring themselves until they got it. After all, they only needed about 500 players...........now about 750.

        Worked for 100 years, why change?

        Then, a non "baseball" entity started studying. And talking. And the establishment can't stand the fact that this group knows more than they do.

        Comment


        • #34
          I once got cocky listening to cues that I thought were stupid like " keep the bat barrel above the hands" as clips clearly show that it doesn't happen.

          Then I look at clips like the Sandman ( Kevin ) clips vs Glaus and you see Glaus keeping the barrel above the hands until is front leg accepted the weight and you get it better what they meant.

          SO.... Some "ole time" cues WERE wrong and in others we really did not know what they were intended to do.

          No doubt...swings get butchered still.

          I still say there is no real or empirical data showing / proving that one teaching method or order of learning parts of the swing has been shown superior. Finally , no amount of instruction can take the place of game experience.

          Then, a non "baseball" entity started studying. And talking. And the establishment can't stand the fact that this group knows more than they do.
          Thin ice here ........There are errors in the work and it's application is not proven superior compared to performance of many other instructors. The terminology is suspect in value in areas. This entity is a decent contributor among many but not the end all that it believes it is....not at all.
          Last edited by swingbuster; 03-19-2006, 07:27 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by hiddengem
            Well, if these high-level hitters don't think about this stuff, then they obviously wern't taught to do it. How did they get to the point they are at?
            It took me so long to get to this that Ohfor and Scott have already answered it ... and done a better job than I would have done.
            Last edited by fungo22; 03-19-2006, 07:55 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by swingbuster
              The Nymanite Chicken Sh** Shuffle Feedback Loop

              1. Compare against clips of the best MLB players in the world.

              2. Well the young players cannot do what the best players in the world can do

              etcetcetcetcetctectectectectectectectectectetcetet cetcetectetectectetc

              Use 1 when you need it then use 2 when you need ...repeat as needed
              I've warned you once, Don. Stop bringing Nyman into a discussion with me. I'm doing my best to try to conduct a dialogue with you based on the standards of rational discussion with a minimum of smart-ass rhetoric. If you want the discussion to degenerate to the kind of crap you've posted above, I might be able to keep up with you playing that game too. But who'd benefit?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by swingbuster
                HG answered the questions on his own accord with his own answers. These are things I have believed from coaching kids. I was a real boost to hear it from a professional that is not afraid to say what he feels. He is not intimidated by you either.
                Donnie, I'm told you are an educated professional. So I'm confident you are capable of reasoning better than this. You completely ignored the points i made in the post you are responding to. Like I said, you think you achieved something by getting HG to stress the importance of the hands. But Donnie, my point was not about whether the hands are important to MLB hitters. My point is that young hitters have nothing in common with MLB hitters so focusing on what MLB hitters focus on is not particularly helpful.

                And what the hell does it matter whether HG is intimidated by me? I'm not trying to intimidate him or even you. This is simply a cheap ruse on your part to enlist HG as your ally ... since you are unable to enlist others by expressing yourself coherently and rationally.

                And even if everything MLB hitters, including HG, were true, it still has nothing to do with what you teach to young hitters. And yet you gloat because you think you really kicked some Nymanite ass. When all your really did was confuse and evade the issue. Which is what you usually do. I try to reply to everything you write. You ignore most of what I write and then post some ******** like this below:

                Who is right? The Nymanites..... just ask them. You guys could make a lot more money being lawyers because in 5 paragraphs you can turn it all around and be right again...oops you were never wrong we just didn't get it .
                You think this kind of crap is clever? You think you've scored some points in rhetoric? Why don't you cut the crap and stick to the discussion?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by fungo22
                  My point is that young hitters have nothing in common with MLB hitters so focusing on what MLB hitters focus on is not particularly helpful.
                  I think there are some basic building blocks that should be tought no matter what age the hitter. Once those are established and "perfected," then there are other issues to deal with as the player gets older and needs to make more subtle adjustments. Most of which can only come from trial and error; them actually feeling and seeing what is happening when they do certain things.

                  fungo, how young are you referring to? Young, as in, kids that don't face curveballs and changeups?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by swingbuster
                    Well Fungo, I wasn't going to bring it up but.......


                    HG answered the questions on his own accord with his own answers. These are things I have believed from coaching kids. I was a real boost to hear it from a professional that is not afraid to say what he feels. He is not intimidated by you either.

                    750 MLB players ...best in World. About 15 Nymanites...

                    Who is right? The Nymanites..... just ask them. You guys could make a lot more money being lawyers because in 5 paragraphs you can turn it all around and be right again...oops you were never wrong we just didn't get it .
                    Is this an example of an ad hominem attack?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by hiddengem
                      Well, if these high-level hitters don't think about this stuff, then they obviously wern't taught to do it. How did they get to the point they are at?
                      Haven't read to the bottom of the thread yet so forgive me if this has already been covered. Good question. Some possible answers that have been advanced are:

                      1. Luck. A few happen to stumble onto the best way of swinging a bat.

                      2. Maniacal focused perseverance. Listening to many champions in different areas, it seems a narrow determined focus, sometimes to a fault, is a big key for "getting" this stuff.

                      3. Each of us have different abilities or types of intelligence. One man may be able to solve calculus problems, another can solve physical movement problems.

                      4. Had good role models. Growing up around high level swings to mimic rather than growing up mimicking my swing seems a likely huge advantage.

                      5. Oh yeah, the obvious one. Emulation.

                      I'm sure other thoughts have been advanced, but these come to mind.
                      Last edited by Mark H; 03-19-2006, 09:43 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        I think there are some basic building blocks that should be tought no matter what age the hitter. Once those are established and "perfected," then there are other issues to deal with as the player gets older and needs to make more subtle adjustments. Most of which can only come from trial and error; them actually feeling and seeing what is happening when they do certain things.
                        I very much agree with this.


                        fungo, how young are you referring to? Young, as in, kids that don't face curveballs and changeups?
                        Certainly that young. On the other hand, if a kid lacks the fundamental "building blocks" - even those who are old enough to be facing curves and change ups - the starting point is still the same: the building blocks. I didn't start building my sons' swings until they were 13 and 14. Their rotation was with their legs and their posture was crap. Their starting point was learning how to rotate efficiently and the posture necessary to do that and connect the bat to their body more efficiently. When they get that, then we can start playing around with better sequencing and even "arm action" if necessary. But as you say, that will all be trial and error based on some of the concepts that Donnie and Tom think are fundamental.

                        As I said, if and when they get so that they can rotate something like major leaguers with their bat efficienty connected to that rotation, then they can start considering the value of major leaguers thoughts. Until then, MLB-level swing concerns are fairly irrelevant to them.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by swingbuster
                          During every era ( including yours) the quality of instruction of the time was thought to be the best there was. Your experiencing NO different in your walk with your son. Nothing has changed in that regard.

                          You will look back and question some of this...we all do
                          If I question and change my views (likely due to slow motion video), hopefully that means I learned. As far as the yesteryear's instuction compared to today, the ready availability of video would seem to be an advantage. Surely in the future, even more analytical tools will be available to instructors trying to make sure they are helping, or at least not hurting, a kid in their quest to become the best they can be.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by fungo22
                            I've warned you once, Don. Stop bringing Nyman into a discussion with me. I'm doing my best to try to conduct a dialogue with you based on the standards of rational discussion with a minimum of smart-ass rhetoric. If you want the discussion to degenerate to the kind of crap you've posted above, I might be able to keep up with you playing that game too. But who'd benefit?
                            Fungo, no one can keep up with you in a linguistic smart ass contest.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by swingbuster
                              The Nymanite Chicken Sh** Shuffle Feedback Loop

                              1. Compare against clips of the best MLB players in the world.

                              2. Well the young players cannot do what the best players in the world can do

                              etcetcetcetcetctectectectectectectectectectetcetet cetcetectetectectetc

                              Use 1 when you need it then use 2 when you need ...repeat as needed
                              Gotta' walk before you can run.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                                I think there are some basic building blocks that should be tought no matter what age the hitter.
                                OK. What are they?

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X