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  • #46
    Consistency

    Will it ever be?

    Originally posted by ssarge
    IF MLB hitters have significant mechanical characteristics in common with each other - and I think we all agree that they do - that is MEANINGFUL evidence that trial and error is a bigger contributor than instruction.
    Scott, not IF but Since hitters have significant mechanical characteristics in common........not being picky (I think you know) but just confirming your observation. Is trial an error a big part----without question. Here's a cue to consider,
    * HG said "flat thru contact" personally I can see this working (trial and error) may work for some---I certainly could see this improving posture thru contact.
    * How about this one "Hit me a pop-up" Stupid? Won't work? How about for the kid that swings straight down to the ball? Could this change his angle of attack? Is it trial and error,,,,,most certainly.

    A short albeit very incomplete list to illustrate a point.
    * Mark H has consistently encouraged viewing of video
    * Sultan attempts to apply it---feel it
    * Swing buster likes the hand action
    * Tom likes the arm action
    * Fungo is big on middle
    *Ohfor talks about Bradon's quickness and what they've done to improve that
    * Porco asks questions but never takes a stand on anything, just argues.

    So because some believe or think that rotation doesn't start from the middle ----mean that it doesn't exist?
    Because some/ most "were never taught that way"-------mean that it is not effective or optimal?

    I played in a golf tournament recently for the atheltic director of my daughter's school (passed away suddenly-heart attack)

    Tony Clark of the Diamondbacks was responsible for bringing in several Major League Players for the event.

    I want to share with you what the responses were to this question.
    Not all exact quotes.question

    How do you feel your swing is inititated?

    TC DBacks: I don't think about that. What I am trying to do is get a pitch in my favorite area. I may stand in a certain area of the box one time up and then shift slightly to "bait the pitcher" to throw it where I want it. Then I simply try to be on time making a quality swing.

    Chad Tracy DBacks
    I have a snap zone right about here (points to an area just in front of his right hip) He replied, Good question. I feel my hands and arms move first, together, and my hips follow very quickly. So, I asked him, hands then hips?
    His reply was , "Yes, because I tend to be too quick with my hips so it feels better to me to think about hands leading hips.

    Troy Glaus former DBack
    I really focus on a solid consistent set-up with very little deviation. When I see the ball in a good spot I try to turn very quickly. I guess my swing is initiated in my brain, he said, and then laughed.

    Reggie Sanders Former DBack/ now Royal
    If my hands move away from my body too quickly I don't hit the ball flush.
    My first move is to keep my hands near my body.

    TC's brother in law: I can't remember his name? Played for 8 yrs. He is going to be a minor league hitting instructor for the Orioles.
    His response: I want to make sure that one body part does not get to far in front of or behind another. I want to hit the ball right there. (points to a contact point)

    Then I asked each of them this: What is the one thing that you consistently work on in batting practice:

    T. Clark: Hitting my pitch
    T. Clark' bro-in-law, since I'm not as gifted physically as some, I worked on being on time to maximize my power.
    C Tracy: I want to feel I'm over the plate a little
    R. Sanders: Moving my body as a unit.
    T Glaus:Pretty much hitting the ball (pretty good sense of humor) No seriously, Being efficient, no extra movement

    I share this with you, not to spur a debate, but rather to show that most of it (hitting instruction, thoughts) even at the highest level is very subjective in nature.
    HG has told us - and this is consistent when talking to all ballplayers - that there is not even consistency in quality of instruction - much less uniformity of message - among professional instructors. Even among MLB instructors.
    I concur. One guy teaches with this mental picture and one with that. Talking with a local hitting instructor, he says to me the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. Great, but is it the quickest, most optimal for developing power? You see, each question, comment, observation, cue, prompts its own separate debate.

    Thus the challenge of developing "good hitters" goes on. As for me, I share the movement of the middle as a key---recognized or not,,,,has helped me to help others become better, namely (like Ohfer's son) took my daughter from mediocre to a decent hitter. Maybe it's just the consistency of instruction, but I doubt it, the middle with posture, and connected rotation is where it's at.

    To quote swing buster, He said that any decent coach can help someone hit better, and I would agree with that.

    Fungo said, that he taught poor ways to rotate, and so did I. Then he has found a very sound way to teach rotation and it works.
    And it HAS to have been developed through either emulation or trial-and-error.
    I just don't see any other logical explanation.
    You have a point.

    PERFECT instruction would not eliminate the need for trial-and-error learning, in my mind. Becasue elite hitters have better than most people learned to do an UNNATURAL thing when they hit. Which is to NOT use their arms to swing.
    You definitely have a point.

    Sincerely,
    LClifton
    Last edited by LClifton; 03-19-2006, 11:27 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Nice post Loren... thanks for sharing the MLBers responses.

      Comment


      • #48
        double post.
        Last edited by LClifton; 03-19-2006, 11:49 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by swingbuster
          750 MLB players ...best in World. About 15 Nymanites...
          Donnie anyone that puts it on the line and attempts to teach young players to become better hitters I take my hat off to, for what it's worth, you, IMO are one of them. So, we disagree on some things, life goes on.
          The 750 certainly don't agree on hitting. Perhaps the "Nymanites" do agree with each other, hey it's a start. Thanks for the tally I didn't think there were that many of "us"...Don't really consider myself anyone's "ite" just a studier of swings, I do think he was spot on in many observations, however.
          Originally posted by swingbuster
          Who is right? The Nymanites..... just ask them. You guys could make a lot more money being lawyers because in 5 paragraphs you can turn it all around and be right again...oops you were never wrong we just didn't get it .
          Just for the record my last (lengthy) post is not an attempt to sway anyone nor to accuse anyone of "not getting it"...Just views on some things that have worked in our hitting adventure.

          Sincerely,
          LClifton

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by jsiggy
            Nice post Loren... thanks for sharing the MLBers responses.
            And for having the initiative and wherewithall to ask them intelligent questions.

            Of course you sat at home afterwards and made up their answers. No one could get major leaguers to actually answer all those questions and then remember all their answers.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by jsiggy
              Nice post Loren... thanks for sharing the MLBers responses.
              Thanks jsiggy..very kind.
              LClifton

              Comment


              • #52
                750 MLB players ...best in World. About 15 Nymanites...
                Not that it changes Donnie's point. But I assume no one cares what pitchers think about htting?

                There are about 13 position players on MLB teams, for a total of 390.

                Regards,

                Scott

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by fungo22
                  And for having the initiative and wherewithall to ask them intelligent questions.
                  No one could get major leaguers to actually answer all those questions and then remember all their answers.
                  I did.

                  Should clarify some. It was very relaxed. I asked if I could "pick their brain" for a minute. While the silent auction was going on I walked around and spoke to all the players after the golf tournament. Sat and ate lunch with Chad Tracy. I got to play 4 holes with Tracy, and 4 with Tony Clark, 4 with Tony Clark's brother in law.

                  I asked them each just 2 questions and they were all extremely willing to talk, especially Chad Tracy. In fact when I first spoke to Tony Clark he pointed to Chad Tracy and said talk to him, he's the hitter. Nonetheless, all very interesting answers about how they felt they initiated their swings.

                  It was kind of like the ESPN commercial for me, "Sports Heaven" lol.

                  LClifton
                  Last edited by LClifton; 03-20-2006, 07:43 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mark H
                    OK. What are they?
                    I don't have a kid (someday, and it better be a boy ), and aside from a few clinics, I haven't spent a great deal of time with young kids on hitting. Much of what you tell them would probably depend on their age and their current ability.

                    What if you just told a kid to stand how they feel comfortable, hold the bat rather loose, squash the bug, throw the knob toward the pitcher, and keep their eye on the ball; then go from there.

                    Most young kids that I've seen hit don't plant their back foot properly, and they use basically only arms to swing with. At least the bug cue would hopefully drill into them, that they don't need to go out and get the ball; they can let it come to them and then by "squashing the bug" the hips will do their thing. Not sure about how the "knob to the pitcher" thing would translate to a little kid. Like I said before, I'm not really qualified to explain what sinks in with kids cause I don't have any.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      If you want a good way to figure out what MLB types think of hitting, I would recommend one of the great bathroom books of all time,HITTING, by Lane.

                      This is a compilation of hitting advice from the great hitters betwen about 1900 and 1925.Reissued recenlty by SABR.

                      not a lot has changed. See especially what Ruth,Hornsby,Cobb,Jackson,Wagner.

                      Index is by player.

                      great stuff.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        I don't have a kid (someday, and it better be a boy ), and aside from a few clinics, I haven't spent a great deal of time with young kids on hitting. Much of what you tell them would probably depend on their age and their current ability..
                        If it's a girl you will just have to get introduced to the world of high level fastpitch softball. Much of what you already know about the game of baseball would help but much is different. You would no doubt get fanatically involved in the world of your daughter and both of you would have a great time.



                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        What if you just told a kid to stand how they feel comfortable, hold the bat rather loose, squash the bug, throw the knob toward the pitcher, and keep their eye on the ball; then go from there. ..
                        I can "squash the bug' like Chubby Checkers doing the twist without ever moving my hips. It's not about the feet it's about the middle. The Dixon book is a good read on this subject. "Throwing the knob" depends on HOW you interpret the cue. I think both of these cues are interpreted in such a way as to produce poor rotation and connection most of the time.





                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        Most young kids that I've seen hit don't plant their back foot properly,..
                        Don't know what you mean on this one.





                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        and they use basically only arms to swing with. ,..
                        Agreed.


                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        At least the bug cue would hopefully drill into them, that they don't need to go out and get the ball; they can let it come to them and then by "squashing the bug" the hips will do their thing.,..

                        Disagreed.






                        Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                        Not sure about how the "knob to the pitcher" thing would translate to a little kid. Like I said before, I'm not really qualified to explain what sinks in with kids cause I don't have any.
                        This is how kids usually interpret knob to the ball. http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Fungo and MarK H

                          I do care what you have to say. I want to know what YOU think. I do not need your thoughts or opinions foot noted as to sources of Dixon, , or ****. Those guys are not here participating. I would love for you to separate from that base . All of you could not have independently come to those same conclusions as evidenced by the different answers the MLB players gave. Nobody has stepped out of the box until a guy like HG ( whom I do not know) agrees with a few statements. I understand why they will not step out......

                          Say what you think and why and I will respond in like kind. You have no idea where I have been with almost every post for 6 months with that treatment so I am sensitized to it.



                          I

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Many differences are semantic. Some are real. Some are pointless like the front leg discussion. Some are from looking at this from different points of view. HG lives in a different world with different tendencies, abilities and language than those of us trying to teach young kids to hit. Wish you, Tom and Steve had gotten on a field together before all this emotion flowed under the bridge.
                            Last edited by Mark H; 03-20-2006, 11:48 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Wish you, Tom and Steve had gotten on a field together before all this emotion flowed under the bridge.
                              I am not emotionally past reclaimation Mark. If we were all in the same room now we would have a great time. I am sure of that

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Hitting sites

                                If beabetterhitter.com isn't so great what would a good hitting site be?

                                Comment

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