Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flicking the wrists to contact

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    There is no better site than this one.

    You have a big league player offering advice.

    You have the premier hitting instructor in the country offering advice. (former #1 pick of the Astros)

    You have the "posse", usn's that have taken instruction from the premier hitting instructor in the country, offering advice.

    You have dads posting clips of their son's and receiving instruction from the above.......that you get to watch and listen to and offer advice if you choose.

    It doesn't get any better than that........................anywhere.
    Last edited by Ohfor; 03-20-2006, 03:26 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      I actually just read this thread and would say that Dave's comments and Mattingly's comments ---and many elite hitters' comments about what they think they do fall into the "action -perception " disconnect or gap.

      Mattingly et al says its in the hands----just like probably millions of others who have swung a bat .

      They all think the same [hands are crtical] yet the outcome [one in a million are elite hitters] is vastly different.

      I assume all [the million plus one] have some sensation of having the bat in their hands.

      Yet only one in a million can hit a 95 mph fastball with elite level regularity.

      I am quite sure that there are millions who feel the "wrist snap" [how many times have you heard "you gotta be quick with the hands" ,or you need quick wrists ,or snap the wrist hard etc,et al.

      Many ,in fact, most ,think along these lines.

      Yet there is only one Mattingly .

      They all have the same swing thought about the hands [perception] ,but only one has the kind of BODY QUICKNESS[action] that allows them to consistently hit elite pitching

      Despite what Mattingly ,dave [hiddengem] me ,or anyone THINKS is happening to cause the "snapping ", the physiological fact is that it will be the speed -strength and reactive [ stretch-shortening ] capabilities of the neuromuscular system --coupled with the tacit understanding of the goal ,ie the skillful application of those abilities applied in the very specific act of hitting a baseball in a live game--- that separates Mattingly from the million. It is THE ACTION that separates Mattingly from the million .

      Not the swing thought [hands,hands ,and more hands].

      The perception is nearly universal.

      The action is not.


      While Dave may think hands or "snapping " is important ,what I noticed with him when I saw him hit in person ---[as with most] ,is that his ability to "snap" was almost entirely a function of a WELL DIRECTED IMPULSE to initiate the swing ,ie impulse of the body mass ,with the upper body postioned to optimally or near optimaly direct that impulse,the effect of both translated into momentum --momentum transfer into the bathead ["snapping"].

      You can think "snapping "all you want [and for some it MAY be important ,although not all feel this way ---personally ,I do not ; and in fact ,i think quite the opposite ie , if I use my entire body well to load the swing ,the swing will unload itself [ "the hook just happens " ] at an optimum point in time and space [this "point in time and space" is most likely a function of long -term memory[experience that is cumulative but that can be recalled in an instant] and feedforward processes [each swing is like a snowflake in that its unique in very subtle ways---and is an anticipatory -REACTIVE process.]

      I would also say that Dave's "action-perception " disconnect also applies to his front leg.

      What I mean by that is that Dave's flex-extend [his preception of "firm -up "] action of extension of the leg to "power the rotation " is not NEARLY as critical as the ability to GET THE LEG TO ISOMETRICALLY CONTRACT VERY QUICKLY --RATHER THAN BEND AT TOUCHDOWN TO FOOTPLANT [thus creating hip slide and thus slowing the rotational impulse--the rotation is, functionally speaking,having to wait for the leg to stabilize --and only this kind of control of the leg to very quickly create a reactive or plyometric "sit/"damp out' /isometrically contract the front leg,will allow really efficient "rotation into footplant"and optimum or near optimum momentum transfer from the pelvic region to the shoulders.

      This IS something we did talk about as being something to try to be aware of [at least in practice ---not games].

      Bottom line is that Dave ,et al, should be at least somewhat aware of the potential problems inherent in "the action -perception" gap.

      Do not let the "perception " be THE GUIDE in all situations .Do not let the "perception " get in the way of knowing what you need to DO [action] to get the job done.

      steve

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by swingbuster
        I still say there is no real or empirical data showing / proving that one teaching method or order of learning parts of the swing has been shown superior.
        This is a very intriguing statement, Swingbuster.

        With all due respect... for all the times that I've read someone (usually Ohfor) telling you to post clips, where is the "poster boy" for the whole "PCR" instruction method? Where are the before/after clips that show marked improvement in similar situations (preferably game swings at similar pitches)? How can everyone be so sure that these methods are better at helping someone achieve a high-level swing than just leaving kids alone to trial and error? (notice that I didn't say "better than other teaching methods" because it might be, but both might still pale in comparison to just figuring it out on your own - as hard as that is)

        I'm not saying it doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm just asking why the "PCR" method isn't held to the same accountability (unless I've missed the clips somewhere?).

        Sincerely,
        Sandman
        Last edited by MSandman; 03-21-2006, 04:19 PM.

        Comment


        • #64
          You're kidding right......

          Nothing like a smart ass who thinks he has a point, climbs out to the far end of the limb, then is shown how ridiculous he is. I do take satisfaction in this. Because all you are doing is exposing the fact that you and/or your son are not willing to do what it takes, and to make you feel better you look for excuses. You criticize those who are doing it and having success. Sorry pal. Your limb just broke.......and I'm proud to be the one that cut it.

          I believe Lclifton's daughter hit 4 or 5 home runs last week..........last week.....not last year. He's learning how to make clips now. Being recruited by DI schools.

          Robert Stock is an animal. His clips are all over setpro and hm.org. Before, after, during.

          My son went from helpless as a freshman to .403 his senior year. Clips galore. Everywhere. Including the before clip (one of our first video sessions) on this site.

          ssarges daughter is hitting .400+ at a very high level of competition.

          flippj's son hit over .500 in allstar competition last year. Clips are all over hm.org/setpro/here.

          A minor league player took lessons from a pcr instructor and was hitting .350 (I believe AA level) before season ending injury. Massive overhaul of his swing with clips galore on hm.org/setpro/hsbaseballweb. Both before and after clips

          Those are the ones that are fresh in my mind. I score it 6-0 so far.

          Now, I can name you the entire roster of my son's high school team that was left to "trial and error" for 4 years. Brandon was the worst hitter of the bunch and ended up in the top 3 on his team. The others will have to fill you in on their details.

          I know if you don't support tom and donny no one will.......Is it your humanitarianism?

          Now, there is enough above that if the sob's have cameras and refuse to enter the "video arena" so that ours can be compared to theirs, and they still refuse, then they ought to shut the f up.
          Last edited by Ohfor; 03-21-2006, 04:56 PM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Settle down... Beavis.

            Why am I a "smart ass" because I simply asked where the before/after clips are? Or are you arrogant enough to think that everyone hung out at h-m and setpro as much as you? And not to burst your bubble, but how do you know that your son didn't hit .403 w/ many of the same non-high-level swings that he took the year before - just making better contact, swinging at better pitches, getting bigger/stronger, etc.? Ditto for the others you mention.

            All I'm highlighting is what Donny said about "empirical evidence". IOW, how do you know that it was your instruction that helped your son hit .403 and not a host of other things, such as the simple fact that you spend so much time w/ him and by the sheer volume of reps he's improved? How do you know that you didn't actually contribute to delaying his progress? I'm not saying that any of us know for sure which way it was, simply that I believe that Donny's right about there being no evidence.

            I see lots of clips of tee swings and other non-game swings. But you providing game results like the stats you so eagerly dumped on me (oh wait, you were "cutting me off the limb"... get OVER yourself, you confrontational SOB!) w/o providing before/after GAME clips is a bit apples/oranges, isn't it? I asked for clips as a form of empirical evidence that this teaching method resulted in this type of swing under game conditions. So your precious "score" ("6-0") is still 0-0 for now - at least until you or someone else is kind enough to point me to the before/after GAME clips.

            All I'm asking is to see the before/after GAME clips. If they're so prevalent, simply point me to them. No sarcasm intended; just a request.
            Last edited by MSandman; 03-21-2006, 04:52 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by MSandman
              ...All I'm asking is to see the before/after GAME clips. If they're so prevalent, simply point me to them. No sarcasm intended; just a request.
              Sorry, no longer interested.

              I prefer to work with people who have cognitive ability.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Steve Englishbey
                .

                What I mean by that is that Dave's flex-extend [his preception of "firm -up "] action of extension of the leg to "power the rotation " is not NEARLY as critical as the ability to GET THE LEG TO ISOMETRICALLY CONTRACT VERY QUICKLY --RATHER THAN BEND AT TOUCHDOWN TO FOOTPLANT [thus creating hip slide and thus slowing the rotational impulse.
                Steve..great post..and something I'm getting much better at, as of the start of spring Training.

                Question..What muscle is NOT firing quick enough in order to "Get the leg to isometrically contract very quickly--Rather than Bend at touchdown to footplant? Thus creating the hip slide.

                Dave

                Comment


                • #68
                  Is it accurate to say that the lead leg extension powers the hip rotation to completion and holds it there a few hundreths of a sec before the wrist unhinge. THis is possible because there is segmentalization in the MLB swing and it is not one piece.

                  So the hands uncocking is behind the mechanism and not turning along with the hips.

                  So it is important to make sure the hitter employs a good method to keep the hands back as the hips turn.

                  I get it now.

                  Gee Ohfer maybe they need a Hands Back Hitter and teach them to maintain the box, bat vertical or in neck slot until the foot plant and hit the ball on the way up if you like.....if your quick enough...
                  Last edited by swingbuster; 03-21-2006, 07:06 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Steve generally posts when he reaches a volatile state of agitation, so he might not even see this.

                    Originally posted by hiddengem
                    Question..What muscle is NOT firing quick enough in order to "Get the leg to isometrically contract very quickly--Rather than Bend at touchdown to footplant? Thus creating the hip slide.

                    Originally posted by Cletus LaLane
                    ... the ability to GET THE LEG TO ISOMETRICALLY CONTRACT VERY QUICKLY --RATHER THAN BEND AT TOUCHDOWN TO FOOTPLANT [thus creating hip slide and thus slowing the rotational impulse--the rotation is, functionally speaking,having to wait for the leg to stabilize --and only this kind of control of the leg to very quickly create a reactive or plyometric "sit/"damp out' /isometrically contract the front leg,will allow really efficient "rotation into footplant"and optimum or near optimum momentum transfer from the pelvic region to the shoulders.

                    This guy is sort of "dropping" or "falling" as well as sort of "sitting" into foot plant. Notice the slight flexing of the front knee as the foot sets down. Like Swingbuster, Cletus calls it a "damping effect." It precludes a "ton" of weight from being transferred to the front foot, allowing the creation of isometric tension in the adductors in the inner thigh. If it came down too heavily or transferred too much weight, the front foot/leg would have to push against the ground to stop the forward momentum instead of creating the stability (isometric tension) necessary to efficienty contribute to rotation early enough to be optimal.
                    In the stride, create some isometric (static) tension by "pinching" the front hip/knee toward the back so that when the front foot touches down and "absorbs" the weight -both by slight flexing of the knee and an ass-out "sitting" movment - enough static contraction in the front leg is created to provide immediate stability - primarily by the adductors - so that nothing drifts further forward as you rotate into foot plant

                    To feel which muscles need to "fire" quickly as the foot touches down try this experiment (which I've posted a couple times before elsewhere):

                    Take a typical stride holding the knee rearward with the inner thigh adductors. As your foot touches down, slightly flex your front knee and stick your ass out. After foot plants (ball of front foot), hold the position described above. Have someone get behind you and push against your back hip toward the pitcher. Contract the muscles in your front leg necessary to prevent your hips from "sliding" forward. Learn to quickly activate those muscles as your front foot touches down.

                    At least his is my understanding based on what I've heard Cletus say several times and my own experimentation and practice.
                    Last edited by fungo22; 03-21-2006, 07:33 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70


                      This clip was posted to illustrate something else, but notice Bond's front knee as rotation begins. It doesn't go anywhere. What muscles are contracting to make that not happen? Those are also the muscles that need to quickly engage to provide immediate stabiity for the hips to rotate "inito" or "against."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Isometric tension is coupled with stride momentum to stabilize because you must be able to control the body to be able to adjust to the pitch and hit the ball and to convert the momentum and bat path into the path of the ball.

                        Fungo..the ball is coming...he is adjusting his moving body in order to hit it. That is what you see as isometric tension...timing.... aligning

                        Isometric tension in part is a " dynamic adjustment mechanism". I can make this stuff up too guys

                        If we knew the exact ball location and had the repeatability and coordination we could " Happy Gilmore " everything" with less isometric tension and more momentum using a big crow hop like throwing from the out field

                        It is a trade off to internally generate pelvic rotation and blend it into stride momentum.

                        Bonds has become the ultimate rotation machine reducing the need for linear motion. Better look again at his upper body pattern to see how he substitutes hand loading/ barrel rotation around the hands for stride momentum. That is what made him a great rotator with no peers. He could not have done that with the lower half alone....He primes his torso from above and below.

                        What your missing in this clip is the far greater hip/ shoulder separation in Bonds in an older heavier muscled guy.How did he get that? It happen back up stream when his hands cocked out of plane and then turned back over as his hips began rotation to the target

                        Kids are not being taught that with a flat hand load.

                        What you will get is all you will get from the middle. Until you get better upper body action and better weight shift and lead leg extension you are improving in a very narrow range. Don't waste two years fiquring that out. Steve doesn't teach that I bet but the implication gets posted here often

                        What muscles are contracting to make that not happen?
                        Not in question..the lead leg cannot extend here anyway. Take the clips forward and compare the pros with the kids and you know what is there. Much of " whats in Bond uniform happened in his upper body pattern and barrel loading that helps work his hips against his shoulder that you cannot see" . Well you can see the pattern clearly and you have heard him talk about his top hand but you chose to ignore it as it clouds the kool-aid
                        Last edited by swingbuster; 03-22-2006, 04:06 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          You simply haven't done your homework.

                          And, you appear to refuse to.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by swingbuster

                            What your missing in this clip is the far greater hip/ shoulder separation in Bonds in an older heavier muscled guy.How did he get that? It happen back up stream when his hands cocked out of plane and then turned back over as his hips began rotation to the target
                            Because that is all you can "see", that is all you know.

                            If you knew what we know you'd have a different opinion.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by swingbuster
                              Isometric tension is coupled with stride momentum to stabilize because you must be able to control the body to be able to adjust to the pitch and hit the ball and to convert the momentum and bat path into the path of the ball.

                              Fungo..the ball is coming...he is adjusting his moving body in order to hit it. That is what you see as isometric tension...timing.... aligning

                              Isometric tension in part is a " dynamic adjustment mechanism". I can make this stuff up too guys

                              If we knew the exact ball location and had the repeatability and coordination we could " Happy Gilmore " everything" with less isometric tension and more momentum using a big crow hop like throwing from the out field

                              It is a trade off to internally generate pelvic rotation and blend it into stride momentum.

                              Bonds has become the ultimate rotation machine reducing the need for linear motion. Better look again at his upper body pattern to see how he substitutes hand loading/ barrel rotation around the hands for stride momentum. That is what made him a great rotator with no peers. He could not have done that with the lower half alone....He primes his torso from above and below.

                              What your missing in this clip is the far greater hip/ shoulder separation in Bonds in an older heavier muscled guy.How did he get that? It happen back up stream when his hands cocked out of plane and then turned back over as his hips began rotation to the target

                              Kids are not being taught that with a flat hand load.

                              What you will get is all you will get from the middle. Until you get better upper body action and better weight shift and lead leg extension you are improving in a very narrow range. Don't waste two years fiquring that out. Steve doesn't teach that I bet but the implication gets posted here often



                              Not in question..the lead leg cannot extend here anyway. Take the clips forward and compare the pros with the kids and you know what is there. Much of " whats in Bond uniform happened in his upper body pattern and barrel loading that helps work his hips against his shoulder that you cannot see" . Well you can see the pattern clearly and you have heard him talk about his top hand but you chose to ignore it as it clouds the kool-aid

                              The thing is though, that everyone already concentrates on what the hands and upper body is doing. That is what everyone sees when they watch major leaguers. Kids all over the place have been practicing what to do with the hands. But the hands alone cannot generate the power that Bonds generates. So, if a kid who is 12-15 or so and has been concentrating on his hands for his whole life, and has no idea what to do with this lower body, what do you think he/she needs to work on? If he/she has ingrained into him by coaches or just by human nature to go to the ball with your hands and has little or no power, do you think we should teach them to cok the bat with his/her wrists more, to flick the wrists at the ball? I think the point is that for awhile when teaching these kids new patterns is that we have to try to get them to stop using their hands so much (or at all) so they can retrain their bodies to use their middle to rotate and at the beginning stages take the hands out of the equation because that is what has gotten them into trouble in the first place. We have to "untrain" them using their hands so much because mostly they have only used their hands to fix their problems that is how they have become the hitters (or lack therof) that they are today.

                              I think when you make a lot of suggestions about hand position or wrist coking or flicking it is like telling an alcoholic to try a different type of whiskey (bad analogy probably).

                              Maybe what you are saying is not wrong, it is just not the main problem for most of these kids. And it should not be the focus of solving their problems.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Fungo22,

                                I understand the point you're trying to make here but using the clip you've used doesn't prove your point in my opinion. The angles of the clips are different so you really can't see what's happening with Bonds' front leg. On top of that there are several differences between the two which makes instability in the front leg a little more possible in my son (Brandon). One involves the wrapped barrel and another involves the position/posture each hitter is rotating from. In other words Brandon's problems with the front leg run deeper than how he's using his front leg in the clip you've posted.

                                In the future if you choose to post that clip of Bonds I would appreciate it if you removed my son from the clip before doing so.

                                Thanks!

                                Jason
                                Last edited by FlippJ; 03-22-2006, 07:00 AM.

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X