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  • Summer ball is over as we had the summer ending tournament today. We lost.

    It's amazing what some of these teams will do. The team we lost too today.....well we were wondering how they made it into the championship game. We hadn't seen them play since we played them last and we were all shocked that this team made it to the championship game. We've played this team three times this summer and each time we beat them by an average of around 12 runs.

    When they showed up to play us today it was clear it wasn't the same kids. They had brought down 10th graders to play in the game. One of our parents knew one of the parents on the other team and talked to them. The parent for the other team said yes they were in the 10th grade but they were still 14 years old and under so it was still within the rules. That's insane. My boy is 14 and is in the 8th grade I mean my God.

    Anyway, its amazing what these other teams will do but what can you do? Just move on. My boy pitched the first 4 innings and gave up 3 runs. When he came out of the game it was tied 3 to 3. From then on it was a nightmare. Our other pitchers gave up 5 more runs and we lost 8 to 3.

    All our kids took it hard and I guess that is what bothers me the most. What did those kids gain by breaking the rules? Yeah those kids won a trophy but at what expense? The kids from that other team learned if you break the rules you can win......wow great coaching. Way to teach the kids about life.

    Yeah I'm a little bitter. It doesn't bother me so much as it hurt to see the faces of our kids. If they had lost fair and square you could just tip your hat to the other team. But it is what it is.

    First Varsity practice is tonight. I think my boy is a little tired both physically and mentally. I find myself wishing he hadn't made the summer Varsity team. I think he needs a break. Luckily he will get little if any playing time and can just watch, like you guys mentioned. I don't care if he plays a single play.....I just hope he has fun and continues to love the game.

    Sparks

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparksdale View Post

      They had brought down 10th graders to play in the game. One of our parents knew one of the parents on the other team and talked to them. The parent for the other team said yes they were in the 10th grade but they were still 14 years old and under so it was still within the rules. That's insane. My boy is 14 and is in the 8th grade I mean my God.


      Sparks





      Sparks, did you hold your kid back at some point years back?
      My 11 year old son is going into the 7th grade next year.
      On the other hand, my nephew was 14 when he was in the 8th grade. My brother chose to hold him back when he started school.
      Last edited by trademark; 06-27-2010, 06:38 AM.
      Just a baseball layman trying to make sense of it all...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by trademark View Post
        Sparks, did you hold your kid back at some point years back?
        My 11 year old son is going into the 7th grade next year.
        On the other hand, my nephew was 14 when he was in the 8th grade. My brother chose to hold him back when he started school.
        It's normal to be thirteen entering 8th grade and fourteen at the end of the year. That would have a kid eighteen when he graduates from high school. My daughter was thirteen at the end of 8th grade due to a late summer birthday.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tg643 View Post
          It's normal to be thirteen entering 8th grade and fourteen at the end of the year. That would have a kid eighteen when he graduates from high school. My daughter was thirteen at the end of 8th grade due to a late summer birthday.
          Yes correct.
          Last edited by trademark; 06-27-2010, 11:56 AM.
          Just a baseball layman trying to make sense of it all...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparksdale View Post
            The parent for the other team said yes they were in the 10th grade but they were still 14 years old and under so it was still within the rules. That's insane. My boy is 14 and is in the 8th grade I mean my God.

            The kids from that other team learned if you break the rules you can win......wow great coaching. Way to teach the kids about life.

            Yeah I'm a little bitter. It doesn't bother me so much as it hurt to see the faces of our kids. If they had lost fair and square you could just tip your hat to the other team. But it is what it is.

            Sparks
            I would guess that those "10th" graders are going into 10th grade and since most all youth baseball organizations use the May 1st cutoff date and not school age cutoff dates, that those kids were probably indeed 14U eligible.

            My oldest was 14U eligible the summer before his 10th grade year (didn't turn 15 until Sept.) and started competing at the JUCO level while still 17 . . .

            My youngest is 15 y/o now before his 10th grade season, but has several teammates that could play "down" to 14U if they choose to.

            Now while those "older" kids probably play "up" with their HS level teams on a regular basis, many TB organizations will dual roster players like this within their organizations for cases just like this. So while there might be some "ethical" questions in doing this, it is not at all illegal for the players and coaches to do this . . . you can consider yourselves lucky that these kids didn't play on those teams all season long as you might not have had the success that you did.

            When it comes to teaching "life lessons", I guess your son and other players learned one of Bill Gate's "life lessons" . . . "Life is not fair; get used to it.”

            Sorry, it didn't work out your way, but chastise the league or organization for making the rules, not the other team or their coaches for using and playing by them . . .
            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
              I would guess that those "10th" graders are going into 10th grade and since most all youth baseball organizations use the May 1st cutoff date and not school age cutoff dates, that those kids were probably indeed 14U eligible.

              My oldest was 14U eligible the summer before his 10th grade year (didn't turn 15 until Sept.) and started competing at the JUCO level while still 17 . . .

              My youngest is 15 y/o now before his 10th grade season, but has several teammates that could play "down" to 14U if they choose to.

              Now while those "older" kids probably play "up" with their HS level teams on a regular basis, many TB organizations will dual roster players like this within their organizations for cases just like this. So while there might be some "ethical" questions in doing this, it is not at all illegal for the players and coaches to do this . . . you can consider yourselves lucky that these kids didn't play on those teams all season long as you might not have had the success that you did.

              When it comes to teaching "life lessons", I guess your son and other players learned one of Bill Gate's "life lessons" . . . "Life is not fair; get used to it.”

              Sorry, it didn't work out your way, but chastise the league or organization for making the rules, not the other team or their coaches for using and playing by them . . .

              That is what I have been thinking.
              I really think it is great when kids play up. So long as it is legal... the kid is OK with it because many times the kids want to be with their friends, not the older kids... and the kid isn't playing in multiple leagues at the same time.
              Just a baseball layman trying to make sense of it all...

              Comment


              • When they showed up to play us today it was clear it wasn't the same kids. They had brought down 10th graders to play in the game. One of our parents knew one of the parents on the other team and talked to them. The parent for the other team said yes they were in the 10th grade but they were still 14 years old and under so it was still within the rules.

                Since these kids were eligible how would your son's season had been if these kids had played all year. That team's plan all season may have been to play as many kids in as many places as possible all season long, then go with the best to win the championship. This is very common in travel ball with academy teams. The backups play Saturday. The best players come in and win the championship Sunday. Everyone gets to play.

                Comment


                • See

                  I see all of your points about the kids able to come down and play (then again you didn't see the size of these kids) but it is what it is.

                  The point of the summer ball championship was to have all the teams that "played in the summer league" have a season ending tournament. The kids on that team didn't play in our summer league.....but it is what it is. I mean we could have brought kids down and made our team better too but that wasn't in the "spirit" of the contest. The contest was for the kids that played in "our" summer league not kids that played in other leagues to come in and play. It is what it is......

                  I can see some good points you guys made and I must agree. We lost and we'll move on. It didn't help that our boys had a bad day either... Still the other team won so we'll see them next year and see how it goes.

                  Sparks

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparksdale View Post


                    The point of the summer ball championship was to have all the teams that "played in the summer league" have a season ending tournament. The kids on that team didn't play in our summer league.....but it is what it is. I mean we could have brought kids down and made our team better too but that wasn't in the "spirit" of the contest. The contest was for the kids that played in "our" summer league not kids that played in other leagues to come in and play. It is what it is......

                    Sparks
                    I totally see your point on this.
                    This doesn't seem right to me either. It is/was a pretty underhanded thing to do.
                    What are the league rules on this...? If it was legal, their isn't anything you can do about it except try and get the rules changed for future teams facing your dilemma.
                    I gotta ask, what happened to the kids on the other team that got replaced by the 10th graders who moved down…? I know that if I were one of those who's kid got replaced, I'd be mad as hell.
                    Somehow I can see 3 or four kids who probably came to all or the majority of practices all season long, paid their money to play and paid their dues in the field who got pushed aside so their team could win at all costs.

                    For that reason alone, this wasn't right.
                    Last edited by trademark; 06-27-2010, 04:03 PM.
                    Just a baseball layman trying to make sense of it all...

                    Comment


                    • Sparks,

                      I gotta tell you, we went through the exact same thing that you did, but it got even more unethical . . .

                      We entered a 14U TB league in our area, with a team that I had had together for about three years with relatively the same 12-14 kids or so. This league ran almost concurrently with the HS season, so five of my bigger/better players headed off to their HS team(s), so I picked up four other players for the league (one 14U, two 13U and a even a 12U kid that could really play).

                      We competed well during the season, but about four games in, I get a call from one of my player's dad, saying that he wanted to be released to go play for another team. Well, I'm not one to make a fuss if a kid (or parent ) wants to move on, so I said, "no problem".

                      Little did I know that he was moving on to an opposing team in the league that had been together as a TB since the kids were eight or nine years old and were/are definitely an "elite" team in the area, to replace several of their HS kids (even though the dad knew they were known for some unscrupulous recruiting and play practices).

                      So, when league playoffs started two games after the HS season ended, he brought back all of his HS players (six) and I only brought back a pitcher to help us "have enough innings available" for the "minimum three game", weekend tournament (and my one HS kid also brought us back to 12 replacing the one player that left during season).

                      Well, they lumped us pretty good (and eventually won the championship) and the player that left my team with illusions of grandeur, saw three innings the WHOLE weekend and mysteriously didn't have a roster spot with them from then out, now that ALL "their" players were back . . . ahhhh

                      So Sparks, I know where you're coming from, but that's elite TB for you, some coaches say they're doing it for the kids, but in reality, it's about "the wins" so they can tell everyone what wonderful coaches they are with their "winning records" and line their living rooms with a bunch of plastic trophies . . . go figure. h
                      Last edited by mudvnine; 06-27-2010, 08:02 PM. Reason: Grammar and to remove probably an inappropriate link (don't want to call out any particular team)
                      In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post

                        Little did I know that he was moving on to an opposing team in the league that had been together as a TB since the kids were eight or nine years old and were/are definitely an "elite" team in the area, to replace several of their HS kids (even though the dad knew they were known for some unscrupulous recruiting and play practices).
                        Wow... they aint no rec league...
                        Just a baseball layman trying to make sense of it all...

                        Comment


                        • Yeah, SoCal TB is a different brand of baseball and I would say unbelievable to many that haven't played or watched games here . . . and why when I watch the LLWS and see the 200' fences . . . I just smile and think "what if . . ."

                          Most of the "ball players" here haven't set foot on a LL field since they were about nine, at least not in our immediate area . . .
                          In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                          Comment


                          • That's kinda my point as well. Our team, like most teams this age, has holes in it. We have three maybe even four players who bat down in our order that are pretty much an automatic out. Imagine if we had replaced those three or four "outs" for three star players a year or even older? I mean my goodness.... you see my point.

                            So this other team took three of their worst players who had played with them all year and replaced them with kids going into the 10th grade who are stars on thier teams. That was not in the spirit of the tournament. This is school summer ball, NOT TRAVEL BALL!. You were supposed to bring the same team you had played with all year.

                            Oh well, it's over now....it is what it is.

                            Sparks

                            Comment


                            • Yeah, if it's a "school summer" season, then I definitely agree with you, it was BS by the other coach for doing what he did. We knew ahead of time what we were getting into and were even warned up front that the other team would do what it did (not the taking of the player part ), before we choose to play under those conditions and I didn't/don't hold any hard feelings for the other coach or team.

                              While I'm not to wild by the way he does some things, he does have a great group of young men, who all have great potential and I wish them all well. I even still love the young man that left to go play with them and wish all the best for him. He's one of the nicest, most respectful kids you'll ever meet and with his playing ability, should do well wherever he goes.
                              In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                              Comment


                              • Update:

                                Tonight we have our first Varsity game. Last night at practice the coach came over and talked to me. I set up in the stands to make sure to stay out of the way. Anyway, we talked about this and that and it came up in the conversation that my boy pitched 4 innings Saturday. The coach told me that was a shame because he was going to pitch him tonight in our first Varsity game. I was shocked to say the least the he even considered pitching my boy in his first Varsity game. I asked the coach what kind of pitching my boy will be facing this year (speed wise). He told me most of the pitchers will probably throw between 78 and 82mph.
                                Again I was surprised because I thought they would throw much harder. The coach even mentioned to me that my boy shouldn't have a problem because he clocked my boy at 75mph and he is close to most of the Varsity kids.

                                Looking forward to our first game. He had my boy at SS last night but I'm sure he is second string at best....probably more like 3rd string or maybe even 4th. I won't know anything until we play tonight but I don't look for my boy to get much if any playing time. That is fine of course...it will be fun anyway.

                                Oh, by the way, I'm told we will be playing a 9 inning game tonight. It will be the first time my boy has ever played in a 9 inning game.

                                Sparks

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