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  • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
    All I'm saying is that "good enough" is all relative.

    If 16yo's are making 17/18U teams out in your area, than it goes to reason that the 17/18Us in your area are obviously not "good enough", or there aren't that many of them if 16yos are beating them out on the upper aged teams.

    Maybe a "man-child" like Harper did it, but talk about "exceptions", it's the single 16yo on a 17/18U that is the "exception"......at least around these parts.

    Now if you want to say that sending HS freshmen and sophomores to high-priced, so-called "elite", 16U showcases is a waste of money I'm OK with that, but let's at least make logical statements about where 16yos should be, and are typically playing.
    That is the perspective that I take with high school ball.

    I don't want my son to be able to make varsity as a freshman in high school. That would indicate that the varsity team is not very competitive.

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    • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
      All I'm saying is that "good enough" is all relative.

      If 16yo's are making 17/18U teams out in your area, than it goes to reason that the 17/18Us in your area are obviously not "good enough", or there aren't that many of them if 16yos are beating them out on the upper aged teams.

      Maybe a "man-child" like Harper did it, but talk about "exceptions", it's the single 16yo on a 17/18U that is the "exception"......at least around these parts.

      Now if you want to say that sending HS freshmen and sophomores to high-priced, so-called "elite", 16U showcases is a waste of money I'm OK with that, but let's at least make logical statements about where 16yos should be, and are typically playing.
      Well and the flip-side is these very same kids who were not good enough at 16 just signed with schools like UCF/Fla/Fla St. and the same goes for your org. You don't sign with these schools if you aren't an elite HS player in some capacity so here you have a whole group of kids who weren't good enough at 16 to knock out the 17s, yet in both my example and yours they seemed to do fine the following year.

      And so getting back to TG providing that dose of realism is good, just realize that your assumptions are not always the case, and I think as it pertains to dousing out someone's hope for their kid, I tend err on the side of letting them and their parents figure all that out. I don't run around at our local school telling parents how hard it is to make one of these teams and I can tell their are a few younger parents who assume their kids will make these teams and unless little Johnny really beefs up the tools he probably won't. Far be it from me to steal the dream, if I am asked I'll say work on your strength (for speed) and your arm etc and warn them it won't be easy. Sometimes I think TG just goes straight for the jugular. Most of us are aware are kids are not the next Pujols, but those that aren't it just doesn't bother me as much. Again having someone bring up reality is not a bad thing, so this isn't a slam on TG.

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      • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
        All I'm saying is that "good enough" is all relative.

        If 16yo's are making 17/18U teams out in your area, than it goes to reason that the 17/18Us in your area are obviously not "good enough", or there aren't that many of them if 16yos are beating them out on the upper aged teams.

        Maybe a "man-child" like Harper did it, but talk about "exceptions", it's the single 16yo on a 17/18U that is the "exception"......at least around these parts.

        Now if you want to say that sending HS freshmen and sophomores to high-priced, so-called "elite", 16U showcases is a waste of money I'm OK with that, but let's at least make logical statements about where 16yos should be, and are typically playing.
        The top teams in our area typically have a 75% 17yo and 25% 16yo makeup. When my son was sixteen it was 18 and 6.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tradosaurus View Post
          That is the perspective that I take with high school ball.

          I don't want my son to be able to make varsity as a freshman in high school. That would indicate that the varsity team is not very competitive.
          When my son was a freshman a dad of a freshman asked if I thought our son's could make varsity. I told him talent wise they can. But then they would be overwhelmed by the competition in games. Plus there were cancers on the varsity that would be graduating after the season. Fortunately the coach felt the same way. They were the last two cut from varsity. They led the JV team to a winning season. The started on varsity as sophs. It was the first varsity winning season in eight years. Their freshman year the varsity was 6-16.

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          • Originally posted by Encinitas View Post
            Well and the flip-side is these very same kids who were not good enough at 16 just signed with schools like UCF/Fla/Fla St. and the same goes for your org. You don't sign with these schools if you aren't an elite HS player in some capacity so here you have a whole group of kids who weren't good enough at 16 to knock out the 17s, yet in both my example and yours they seemed to do fine the following year.
            Enc, I'm not saying that the 16s in the organization aren't "good", or "good enough" at their age level....in fact, the kids on the 16y/o team of this organization are "really good", and would probably give most of the "daddy ball" 18U teams a run for their money (if not a pounding).

            But when TG makes a blanket statement that "If 16yo's are good enough they typically play up to 17/18U" when talking about Sparks' boy playing in what he considers a not so "elite" 16U tournament, as if it's not so impressive, or a bad thing.....and I just believe that Sparks (and others) need to know what's really going on out there, and that his boy is doing just fine for his age, and year in school.

            And so getting back to TG providing that dose of realism is good, just realize that your assumptions are not always the case, and I think as it pertains to dousing out someone's hope for their kid, I tend err on the side of letting them and their parents figure all that out. I don't run around at our local school telling parents how hard it is to make one of these teams and I can tell their are a few younger parents who assume their kids will make these teams and unless little Johnny really beefs up the tools he probably won't. Far be it from me to steal the dream, if I am asked I'll say work on your strength (for speed) and your arm etc and warn them it won't be easy. Sometimes I think TG just goes straight for the jugular. Most of us are aware are kids are not the next Pujols, but those that aren't it just doesn't bother me as much. Again having someone bring up reality is not a bad thing, so this isn't a slam on TG.
            I'm not sure who you were referring to about "dousing out someone's hope for their kid", but I hope you understand that I was merely trying to let Sparks and others know that playing at the highest (or higher) level of one's own age group is a very good thing, something they should be proud of, and not worry that not playing above one's own age level will not effect them negatively with their scholarship chances.

            One players that I instruct in hitting, didn't even go to his first PG showcase until January of his junior year, when he was a 17yo. At that showcase, he was asked to play on the "A" team of the organization that I'm talking about. The summer following his junior season, he traveled with the club to all of the "big" showcase tournaments throughout the country, and even Hawaii.....

            By the end of the summer, he had committed to a well respected, D1, Big West Conference school, on a 67% scholarship as a "position player" (I think you understand the significance to that ).

            Prior to that, he played on a local, run-of-the-mill, age level TB team......I'd say at 16, that he was "good enough", but played only at his age level, and not on a 17/18U team.
            Last edited by mudvnine; 08-07-2012, 04:56 PM.
            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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            • Mud ... The reason I explained things the way I did to Sparks is I'm getting the impression he thinks these 16U tournaments are showcases for college attention. At one point he was thinking baseball was going to pay for college. We know that doesn't happen unless a player is a top shelf, jaw dropping, pro prospect, middle of the field stud or pitchijng stud. If a kid plays on a 17U showcase team at sixteen he may draw attention like my son (technically my son was fifteen with his May b-day, but it was post soph summer). But unless it's a jaw dropping stud sixteen year old he has to prove it again next year. There's no doubt the showcase season that counts is the summer/fall after junior year. A kid can come out of nowhere in 17U and go places. I've seen it happen before. In the case of my son it was fortunate he drew attention after soph year. He got injured in his first weekend of showcase ball after junior year. With the attention he drew the summer before he ended up walking on and reshirting. The coach knew who he was before he showed up at the school with pro scout references.

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              • Mud, no you misunderstand I was completely agreeing with you. With my point about the Fla. team if 23 out of 23 of those kids are signing D1 or getting drafted next year and 19 of them didn't make the team until they were 17, then absolutely they were also darned good at 16 and in fact a good chunk of them probably already committed. Same as your situation. Most of what we'd call the elite Fla. teams have 17U, 16U and a freshman team, as well as many having a 14U. Feeder teams for the Feeder Teams so to speak. Most of the teams at Sparks tournament were traditional travel ball teams not necessarily drawing kids from all over the state, and again there are some gems in there, not everyone can drop 5k in travel and other expenses to be on a showcase team every summer.

                Really at PG tournaments I was surprised by many kids were not throwing upper 80s as I wandered around the fields and looked at the radar guns. I can't say how calibrated they were but if you checked PG blogs often you'd see "so-so hit 87 but typical fastball was around 83-84" and so if I had a 2014 throwing 82 or so, I wouldn't worry about it at all. That is assuming the game speed is the same as cranking it up for the Tools Showcase his son participated in. We had a lefty 2013 going 76-81 some games and he managed to get a few kids out anyway including Big Rowdy from out in Cali. Sparks 82 for 2014 tells you that a) he has room to get better and b) he is doing fine nonetheless. I am not sure my 17 soon to be 18 is throwing 80+ at a 1B, I think last time I looked it was 79 on the pocket radar, 82 would look much better.

                And TG is right there is very little money in baseball, you have to use baseball to extent to help get you where you two want to go and not let baseball use you if that makes sense.

                If I had one piece of advice Sparks it would be to get him to find a way to enjoy the kids he plays with. I had dinner tonight with a young guy we are bringing on to coach our 16U team for this fall. He just finished his college career with the Florida Gators having played his last two seasons for the Gators. The one thing that stuck with me when I asked how disappointing the loss to Kent State was he mentioned "we had all these stars on the team this year but we didn't gel as a team". He felt the previous year when they got to the national title game there was a much stronger camaraderie whereas this year they got along fine but didn't really have that super team feel and they ended up with a disappointing two-and-bbq in the College WS. Figure out a way for your boy to love the kids who make silly errors or watch three strikes go by without a swing. I know at times he's seemed disappointed with his teammates and now that he is older might be expected to be a leader and that includes bringing the kids together.

                Comment


                • Really at PG tournaments I was surprised by many kids were not throwing upper 80s as I wandered around the fields and looked at the radar guns. I can't say how calibrated they were but if you checked PG blogs often you'd see "so-so hit 87 but typical fastball was around 83-84"
                  What age group was this? On my son's 17/18U team every pitcher cruised at at least 87. The top four consistantly hit 90. One was a first round pick. Another is pitching for UNC. They all went D1. For opposition the team saw all of 87-92. At PG events they pool teams by talent. There are some lesser teams there. One of my son's high school teammates was on a team full of D3 prospects. Their pitchers were at 82-85. The parent said they hardly saw any college coaches at their games. That's a waste of money for a trip.
                  Last edited by Jake Patterson; 08-08-2012, 07:40 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by Encinitas View Post
                    if I had a 2014 throwing 82 or so, I wouldn't worry about it at all.
                    I would since he would be on track to hit 85 by Jr year. You generally must top at 90 to get small D1 interest. And now you must top at 92/93 to get into the biggest D1s.
                    Last edited by songtitle; 08-08-2012, 04:45 AM.
                    efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                      I would since he would be on track to hit 85 by Jr year. You generally must top at 90 to get small D1 interest. And now you must top at 92/93 to get into the biggest D1s.
                      Simply not true, I know of two 2013s that live right near us that have committed to Florida and it's hard to find any write-ups of these guys hitting 92. Typically hovering in the 88-89 area on fastballs.

                      TG back to your question which I've not quoted this was at 17U/18U BCS and/or WWWBA events including East Cobb. I know how the brackets are drawn up and typically they know who the primary team is in each pool that should (all things being equal) escape pool play. Sometimes they have to put a couple of elite type teams together, but typically one of the little guys has to knock off these big boys to advance. At East Cobb this year our team was 3-0 and we were going against the other 3-0 team. With so few pool games I would think they would deem that game important enough to throw a good pitcher. This team has the #1 PG 2013 prospect in the country, as well as the #6 guy, and many others including a kid borrowed from California who won the HR Derby at PG National. Probably 5 kids or so that went to the PG National invite only. There were tons of scouts there. Our starting P was never above 82 and shut them down for quite some time. We had them 5-0 into the bottom of five in fact, and I am sure their P was no more than 85-86 and this is a loaded club. He wore out, and we brought in the lefty who is 77-81 tops. Long story short they battled back to a tie and the PG #1 kid hit a walk-off homer in the bottom of 7th.

                      If 90 MPH pitchers were falling off trees why didn't this team use one? With our early lead we saw three different Ps as they could not afford to lose to us. BTW that PG#1 also threw out a runner at home on a Sac Fly from about 10 feet from the warning track in RF. He throws 98 MPH but not a pitcher. We went to watch our old friends from San Diego play an East Cobb elite team and both P's, major D1 signees were around 88 or so not 93.

                      Are big-time D1s signing guys throwing 92-93? yes
                      Is that an absolute requirement to get in the door? No

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Encinitas View Post
                        Simply not true, I know of two 2013s that live right near us that have committed to Florida and it's hard to find any write-ups of these guys hitting 92. Typically hovering in the 88-89 area on fastballs.
                        All Florida RHP 2013s
                        Morales - 93
                        Shore - 91 (205 lbs)
                        Danish - 92
                        Anderson - 91 (6'5" 235 lbs)
                        Dunning - 90 (6'3" 197 lbs) (PG considers him 'just' a Top 1000 rank)

                        My kid is a 2013, so we are going through the process now.
                        Last edited by songtitle; 08-08-2012, 07:52 AM.
                        efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                        Comment


                        • Guys,
                          I think this thread is a little off track... If we want to further discuss the above. I can start another thread.
                          Jake
                          "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                          - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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                          • Jake my point in the debate I suppose is that Sparks should not be overly concerned right now. Of course that depends upon the kids goals, certainly let's say he can be 85-87 by the time he graduates it might in fact rule out Big-time SEC type schools, but my point is there will certainly be a place for him if he keeps improving.

                            And Song, I am sorry I was confusing one of the two local kids committed to Fla. State not Florida but the Florida kid is not in your list. He's nice little lefty who gets everything out of his frame and his top PG speed is 88 so I am sure Florida sees a kid not even 160 yet and says wait until he gets into our conditioning program.

                            Comment


                            • It seemed to me at the PG events in GA and FL 90's were falling out of trees. PG listed all the ptchers who were gunned at 90+. It was a long list. From talking to some pro scouts at A10 and CAA games (mid major) the average pitcher cruises at 85. The better pitchers are at 87-90. The pro prospects are the handful in those conferences that are 90+.

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                              • Looking at the 17U tournament from East cobb, I show 125 Pitchers did hit 90 or above. I really should grab 16U for Sparks but this is an idea of what the next summer will be like.
                                I realize this this a dumb way to categorize by 10's but the 17U numbers
                                60's - 14 - most likely teams running out of guys a real outlier
                                70's - 496
                                80's - 1693
                                90's - 125

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