Hitting PCR vs Hands, Wrists, Top Hand, Bottom Hand, Hips First, ETC

[TDS]

This is my first post and have been lurking for quite sometime. I do think we are all here to help teach hitting. I have been teaching hitting for the past 20years, and have tried a lot of the above methods with limited success. I have researched numerous videos and Purchased the final Arc, and attempted tht with no success. I do believe Jack has a great understanding of what happens on high level swings, I just believe most of these things are non teach. I also spent a month working with my brother in an attempt to break him of the backfoot Epstein approach which I had success and he finished his senior season 15th in the Country hitting 435. My approach has been to make sure we got him on to his front side early enough to be able to explode through the ball. I to read and broke down and purchased Steve’s CD’s. All I can say is I wish I had this 20 years ago. Steve has away of making things real simple and eliminates a need to wory about hands, hips, bottom hand, top hand etc.

By the way I don’t know Ohfor from Loafer, and do wish he wouldn’t use those antics.

Thanks,
TDS

[tadlock11]

- but Ohfer gives this forum a pulse :grouchy

I haven't taught for near as long as you, but do have a library full of videos that are about worthless now. After watching Steve work with about half a dozen hitters for a few hours each was really amazing to such a transformation in a short time.

On a side (talking about family) for the first time in a long time, my brother and I talked hitting yesterday. Back in high school, he led the greater Houston area in home runs (5A). In college, he said his coach liked his "natural uppercut" swing - which is funny because he and I where both taught to "swing level".

[Ohfor]

Some get a pulse, some get a heart attack, some get some laughs.

And a certain few get a headache.

I think you get what you're looking for.

Remember one thing.............no one learns anything until passionate debate takes place. Each side needs to "prove" their point of view.

Video of the best doing it is the best proof.

And, to protect all who aren't in the know but trying to learn, I choose to "point out" those who can't/won't provide video evidence of their theory.

[bob_r]

Hi I'm new to this form as well. There is a lot of information out there, which is great. You made reference to Steve's CD's. Whom are you refering to?

[TDS]

Steve Englishbey

[Slapper23]

I would amend Ohfor's statement to say, "no one learns anything until they dig and dig, and dig some more in learning about this hitting stuff." Debate is good, I just don't know how passionate it has to be. Most of the so called "passionate" debate I see is about as immature you're going to see adults act. Some people join up with a school of thought and become rabid zealots in defense of it.

I really think the "proof" thing is very overstated. Video is no sure fire proof because two people can look at the same video and see different things, and end up not in agreement. People like Steve can be very helpful and offers the best, I think, teaching material around. But in all due respect, even Steve doesn't have all the answers. Keep an open mind and decide for yourself, IMO.

Mike

[Ohfor]

You better stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

If tom.guerry isn't proof of the "put everything in a mixer and take what spews" doesn't work then you'll..........well...........fall for anything.

I will never apologize for working against (very aggressively if need be) what I know for a fact doesn't work.

If you choose to redo everything we've done and been through, which can save years of trial and error, because you don't like a posters attitude, then, you deserve what you get.

[Mark H]

I would amend Ohfor's statement to say, "no one learns anything until they dig and dig, and dig some more in learning about this hitting stuff." Debate is good, I just don't know how passionate it has to be. Most of the so called "passionate" debate I see is about as immature you're going to see adults act. Some people join up with a school of thought and become rabid zealots in defense of it.

I really think the "proof" thing is very overstated. Video is no sure fire proof because two people can look at the same video and see different things, and end up not in agreement. People like Steve can be very helpful and offers the best, I think, teaching material around. But in all due respect, even Steve doesn't have all the answers. Keep an open mind and decide for yourself, IMO.

Mike

The debate and the heat let people know where the disagreements are which should help them focus their digging. The proof thing is imperfect in the sense that we all "see" as Paul "God rest his business life" said, through the lens of our previous beliefs and training and in the sense there are some things we just can't see in video. Still, comparing everything everyone says to video of the best in the world is the best truth detector we have IMO. Continually exposing one's opinions to peer review and video review seems the best way to advance understanding.

[Slapper23]

Mark,

I pretty much agree with what you're saying. Video examination/evidence of the best MLB swings is the way to go, IMO. Learning from people like Paul Nyman - who I would say is just about a total jerk when posting, but who I did listen to because I agree with a lot of his hitting thoughts - Steve Englishbey - who has a great hitting/training system I'm in the process of arranging "my hitting philosophy/training" around, although not in it's entirety - Tom Guerry, who I think does have a good overall sense of how the MLB swing unfolds - Coach Mike Lotief and many of you have helped shape my swing thoughts...and they are still evolving because I'm still learning. I guess you'd say I have a Setpro orientation concerning my hitting beliefs, but it doesn't mean I took everything Paul said as gospel.

A poster's attitude may not be the greatest,but if he/she has something to offer in furthering knowledge, I'm all ears. What I have a problem with, and maybe it's just me and none of you feel the same way, is this constant belittling and ridiculing by a few of you of good people like Tom, Donny, and others who offer different opinions on the swing. I have watched for the past few years as Tom, in particular, took abuse heaped upon abuse from Paul and Richard (Ohfor), and now too, Greg, while Tom took it like a gentleman. Well, now, he barks back at times and I don't blame him.

To my way of thinking, good information will stand on it's own merits without someone constantly sniping in juvenile fashion at the person who disagrees. And everyone should do as Mark has stated repeatedly and that is "review anything anyone tells you about the swing against slo-mo video of the best MLB hitters." And IMO, never, never teach something because someone/anyone says "do it this way because I say so/because I know." That's not what is said, of course, but is implied in some poster's comments. I always recommend keeping an open mind, because no one has all the answers. That's what I stand for, Richard.

Mike

[Ohfor]

That's what I stand for, Richard.

Mike

You mean that's what you fell for.

You can not mention tom as a bearer of good hitting information and at the same time say "compare everything to video". And keep a straight face.

ridiculing good people like Tom and Donny

You, like most, can not separate attacking their lack of hitting knowledge with attacking them personally.

You can't say I support or agree with Steve E and then say I support and agree with Swing*****. Not with a straight face. Not with any intellectual honesty.

You are falling for "the gentleman" even though you won't admit it. Ok by me. Could care less how you fall. Just don't expect to hit.

I highly recommend you reevaluate your goals. Because if a posters attitude is in your way, your goals aren't very high.

Learning to hit is the hardest thing in sports. "You'll learn only if it feels good" approach will keep you/your son/whomever you work with below their genetic potential.

Dealing with me is a lot easier than dealing with them "sombitches". (Steves word for pitchers).

[Slapper23]

Richard, I would say you take great glee in attacking people personally, not only here, but at other web sites I've observed over the years. You might be able to offer a lot of knowledge to people, but you make it about the person, not the knowledge.

If you read my post closely, you'll see I mentioned "attitude", while not always to my liking, is meaningless to me if good knowledge is presented. Paul Nyman fit into that category with me...poor approach, pretty good knowledge that helped me quite a bit.

I'll learn if "it" (knowledge/statements/video) makes sense. I think I've come a long way since I began this stuff in 1999 on FPF, and I still have a ways to go.

Put it this way, I like Steve's stuff very much.. a lot of it make sense. That doesn't mean though, that I flatly discount anything Tom, Donny, or even you have to say about hitting.

IMO, none of your personal attacks help Steve's mission along much. If anything, I think the personal stuff detracts from Steve's material and message. Again, this is my opinion. It doesn't mean anyone else agrees with it, but it's something I have come to see over time.

It kind of goes back to something I said earlier, and that is, in effect, Steve's material should be good enough to stand on it's own because it's good information. His information doesn't need constant defending by attacking those who have a different message or approach. What's to fear? Oh I know, it may ruin or delay someone's development right, because they might get led astray. It's like Nyman did say in a general way, that people need to find this stuff out for themselves by digging and digging. Not because you or anyone else said "do it this way" (or you're an idiot.)

Mike

[Ohfor]

Put it this way, I like Steve's stuff very much.. a lot of it make sense. That doesn't mean though, that I flatly discount anything Tom, Donny, or even you have to say about hitting.

This shows alot. We'll be patient with you. But how you can give any credence to them, when they continually refuse to offer video of their beliefs is amazing. Does that not raise a red flag with you?

IMO, none of your personal attacks help Steve's mission along much. If anything, I think the personal stuff detracts from Steve's material and message. Again, this is my opinion. It doesn't mean anyone else agrees with it, but it's something I have come to see over time.

If it was my goal to help Steve's mission, I'd ask for a paycheck. My goal is to help my son hit. He has been helped tremendously by Steve's stuff....and I have said so. And will say it again and again. A little bit (maybe a lot a bit) of word of mouth advertising for Steve. He earned it.

And if you can take all you know about it and not pursue it because I'm ignorant, then you deserve what you get.

But, my goal has little to do with Steve's success. He is the best and will be with our without me. My goal is for my son to play in college.

It kind of goes back to something I said earlier, and that is, in effect, Steve's material should be good enough to stand on it's own because it's good information.

Steve's stuff does not need support. But that other sh*t needs to be dissed. Maybe you haven't heard my motto........Support the best, dis the rest.

And when you're done whining, or glad handing, bascially offering nothing, why not offer a clip or two with some commentary?

[swingbuster]

IMO, none of your personal attacks help Steve's mission along much. If anything, I think the personal stuff detracts from Steve's material and message. Again, this is my opinion. It doesn't mean anyone else agrees with it, but it's something I have come to see over time.

Mike ..he doesn't get open discussion and freedom of speech

" You better like Steve's stuff Buddy or I'm gonna whup yo a$$"

and he is Head of Marketing

And that Swingbuster Commie ******* selling them HBH thangs and ruining the little kids and all we will have is them Dominicans playin ball soon.

[Ohfor]

One thing I can't recall ever doing, is going onto a web site with a "new name", a name like "Bat Buster", (something that no one would suspect was the same person as "Swingbuster") and saying something in an anonymous attempt like..........."hey, have you guys ever heard of the HBH. It looks pretty good to me" you ought to look into one."

Right Swingbuster?

[Ohfor]

and he is Head of Marketing

First....

Lets set the record staight.

I've offer to be his shipping conglomerate. Nothing to do with marketing.

I've offered to do that so he can be "in the field".

I've offer to do it for no pay, just to help get the information out there.

And, I can fully understand if they don't want me to do it. No problem.

Second...

I've been asked to "tone it down" several times by Steve and other members of the posse.

So, don't paint them with the broad brush that you'd like to use on me.

I'm a renegade through and through.

Stop saying stupid stuff and you probably won't here from me.