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  • #31
    Peavy has a nice set of progressive drills for starting with lead arm one arm drills,then adding top hand action to bottom hand in steps, but Mankin's approach (start with one arm back arm/pathfinder to learn "chp" feel of "nondominant top hand/back arm,then add lead arm"BHT", then add earlier top hand loading/launch "tht")makes the most sense IF you believe in the torque component of the swing and it's importance in determining swing trajectory and optimizing swing quickness.

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    • #32
      Do the drill with the top hand into the bag from three positions.

      1. the exact position his bat and top hand start from now

      2. A higher rear elbow and the bat splitting the helmet

      3. a higher rear elbow and the bat in front and tipped to pitcher

      Start your hip turn as the bat is coming down and behind you in position 2 & 3.
      My hope is that through this drill you will feel what happens when you cannot lead with the top hand...it begins there and ends there for many
      Last edited by swingbuster; 04-04-2006, 04:43 PM.

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      • #33
        I don't see any takers on Swingy's one minute fix.

        His claims just get more and more ridiculous. All in an attempt to look smart. Something has to make up for the HBH.

        He'll give you the "little league" swing that wears out early. Just give him 30 minutes of your time.

        We'll give you the "high level swing" that will take you to your genetic potential.

        36 months? If you don't have it, don't start. That would be considered a very short hitting learning curve. Most spend their entire lives and don't get it. A couple hang around here.

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        • #34
          36 months? If you don't have it, don't start. That would be considered a very short hitting learning curve. Most spend their entire lives and don't get it. A couple hang around here.

          I bought the dixon book and tried to get this kid to turn from the middle.i tried to get him to go forward by turning.showed him the hip placement etc etc..He fights me and says it doesnt feel right,thats how I know its good.lol...problem is you WILL get worse b4 you get better.

          Right now the season has started already and pup made the B team.He is a big strong kid at five foot 11,, he can throw pretty hard has a great change and curve and could benefit almost any team as a pitcher.He really is a fair position player and I mostly spent my time pitching with him or letting him pound balls in our backyard cage.So if the coaches want him for next year it will be because of his pitching and " hitting' .BASICALLY he has to perform pretty much right now and have a big year to have a shot when they take it from 26 kids down to 11.

          So 36 months may be out of the question if he wants to keep playing in HS.
          once you are cut or on the outs as a sophomore its hard to get back in.We live in du page county in Illinois.This is a very competitive and above avg income county.It was like the inner city was 30 yrs ago..KIDS upon KIDS upon KIDS.My hope and his too is to play throughout HS and into college.My best memories in life were from HS sports and athletics.I would love him to have the same.Sure ohfor he can get the same feeling wrestling etc,,and when its alll over {AND IT WILL BE FOR 99.9 percent what do you have left but the memories.
          ohfor your kid has a nice swing,do you think he could play for a major universitie program or just for a smaller college?Did your kid play ball throughout his HS years ? did he walk on for a college tryout? What position does he play? The reason I say that is because these kids arent pitchers only or DH's only.They have to perform in the field too.,Yet if he can knock the snot out of the ball they will usually try to find a position to "HIDE him at for his stick..But that doesnt happen much in HS.


          I was hoping steve could come out and work some magic with son.But i do know its tough to do in 3 days.
          Last edited by wogdoggy; 04-04-2006, 02:25 PM.

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          • #35
            Words of Encouragement

            Wog,

            Don't be too discouraged by Ohfor's comments. I think his main point was that Swingbuster's approach is to put a bandaid on by tipping the bat this way and that with the hands (we have been promised video as you well know), while Ohfor's approach is a long-term solution. That is not to say that by teaching PCR the way Ohfor and others do that you won't start to see results soon. Ohfor's own son seems to be advancing rather quickly given when he started.

            Have you tried showing your son clips of him versus high-level hitters? If so, how does he view his own swing in relation to those?

            Do you have an L-screen in your cage? If so, go back and read Ohfor's suggestion about saying "go" and having him swing. Modify that - get about 15 feet away and fire balls in from behind the L-Screen. He'll "learn" to remove some of the slop on his own.

            Obviously his visit with Steve will jump start all of this and a light should click on for him.

            Joe

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            • #36
              ohfor used to rub me the wrong way but he is a "BLUNT" instrument and he is what he is.Probably not a bad guy and probably not as blunt in person as in print.

              I do feel that its an "us or them" attitude on this board.personally I think these little digs at each other is a joke.Guerry knows more than me ohfor knows more swingbuster and of course steve too.EVERYONE of these guys have contributed here and have HONESTLY tried to help people here looking for it.TO me that means ALL of you GUYS are down to EARTH good people trying to help..but unfortunately it takes on the "us or our way vs their totally wrong way"...Some great minds on this board just think if we took away all the personalities...

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              • #37
                Hey Wogdoggy,

                Jojab's post on putting the bat on the back shoulder is an excellent drill to understand the hand position after the back shoulder has turned the corner.
                i'd rest the bat on the outside of the rear deltoid with the hands close to the shoulder, wrists cocked, box tight. now rotate the hips that are connected to the torso that is connected to the shoulders around the TILTED spine. rotate fully until the back forearm is perpendicular to the ground. repeat this move until it feels comfortable. watch the tilt. watch the front elbow(stays at the same angle that was set at launch. and stays elevated). it is this "turned corner" position that the hands will fly to the ball from the rotational forces and the lowering of the rear forearm(swingbuster's cue) get the loaded top hand in position to unload at the last millesecond.

                Getting the corner turned with the hands in this position and the wrists loaded is one of the keys to a high level swing. good luck with your son.

                ps. swinging from a tilted position is difficult especially when you're used to swinging upright. it looks like your son swings upright(although it was a high pitch)

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                • #38
                  I bought the dixon book and tried to get this kid to turn from the middle.i tried to get him to go forward by turning.showed him the hip placement etc etc..He fights me and says it doesnt feel right,thats how I know its good.lol...problem is you WILL get worse b4 you get better.

                  I hope that felt bad

                  Smart kid...you go forward while turning back( inward) initially. That is the part they do poorly. When the ball comes into the zone and they are loaded properly they hit great. Turning out / forward into the ball is the easy part. . You do not get worse to get better.

                  Fix the hand set first ....heck...watch Turner Network and see the MLB guys that hit like I am talking about.

                  ELABORATE in english please!
                  Change his hand set where his top hand cannot lead at launch and you will find him in need of less fixing elsewhere
                  !
                  Last edited by swingbuster; 04-04-2006, 04:03 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Woggy,

                    36 months was Swingy's term...

                    But.....if your son takes 36 months to learn this stuff, it's not worth it? Who cares how old he is? Who cares what level he plays? Either he wants to learn or he doesn't. Why can't he walk on at a small college when his 36 months are up?

                    You said it all with this...

                    ...he fights me and says it doesn't feel right
                    I'll up it to 48 months based on that.

                    And, it's still worth it......to me. You?

                    Let me tell you something.....if it feels right it's probably wrong. Feeling right gets you his current results.

                    I think the "have to have it" mentality is what I tried to point out to you the first time I jabbed you.

                    And, I don't mean it as a jab this time. It's just simply the truth. You have to want it. We've learned a lot from Steve E and the PCR crowd. But, the bottom line is.......Brandon wants it. He isn't wasting any instructors time.
                    Last edited by Ohfor; 04-04-2006, 04:36 PM.

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                    • #40
                      I'm going to come clean here..My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated.
                      Then i started looking for other answers,

                      try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.

                      I know dixon is closer to the RIGHT way but after years of doing it this way it felt bad.
                      I print out the different posts here and try a few things but Honestly I would even doubt myself after all the hoops I ran this kid through.I wanted my hand off of him and i wanted someone else to help him..but I get the knob to the ball guys and never go back.

                      The only cue my old man EVER gave me growing up was USE YOUR BODY.Thats it.Dixon is right we DESTROY our kids..and i'm guilty.h

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by wogdoggy
                        What can I do to fix this kid before STEVE gets here.
                        From your comments I gather Steve is coming fairly soon. If so, I would recommend just leaving your son alone for now. Give him time to just play and psyche himself up for the changes he'll soon be making. Nothing worse than changing yet again only to find out the change you were working so hard to get into his swing, is not something you want or a good way to add it.

                        Originally posted by wogdoggy
                        I was hoping steve could come out and work some magic with son.But i do know its tough to do in 3 days.
                        If he's like all the other kids I know of he will improve while Steve is there.

                        More importantly you and he will know what to do afterwards... the time won't be as important as you'll have a direction which works and you'll be crystal clear on that direction.

                        Originally posted by wogdoggy
                        I'm going to come clean here..My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated.
                        Then i started looking for other answers,

                        try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.
                        IMO, another reason to leave him alone for now.
                        Last edited by jsiggy; 04-04-2006, 09:20 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by swingbuster
                          .
                          I can fix that in 10 swings and then see how bad the rest really is...usually not bad
                          I would like to see the 10 swing fix you keep talking about. Could you get a kid who needs this fix and video his 11 swings, so I can see the results?

                          If you do not have a place or way to post, I will host the video clip.

                          If you do not know how to get it from tape to video, PM me and I will give you my address and reimburse you for the mini-DV and create the video (and post it).

                          If you do not have a video camera, PM me and I will reimburse you the cost to rent one.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            In my opinion, Ohfor is right on in what he has been saying in this thread.

                            1. The young man has a classic hands/arm swing pattern: He strides with weight shift to create momentum to help his hands get started. He stands up and opens his front side so that his lower body does not obstruct "throwing the barrel," "throwing the hands" or taking "his hands to the ball." He "drags" the bat with his hands/arms. He does it pretty well so I would predict he has experienced quite a bit of success. But his success will start diminishing as he faces 80 (and above) mph pitching. His batspeed is probably pretty good, but his swing is too long and slow. His posture is not efficient, so he will have trouble quickly getting the barrel on an accurate swing path, especially on pitches up and down in the zone.

                            2. What is needed is not a "fix." What is needed is a more athletic, efficient way to get the bat to the ball. By "efficient," I mean quicker, more accurate barrel path and with more power. By "athletic," I mean in the same way that elite athletes at the highest levels of baseball get their bats to the ball.

                            Steve will not fix him in one or three days. Steve will show him how elite athletes swing a bat and will do "any number of things" to help him begin to move in more athletic, efficient ways. It will definitely not "feel right" because he is not used to moving like an elite athlete. He is used to doing it the way most athletic kids end up doing it ... and never reaching their potential. After practicing these new movements, they will begin to feel more natural.

                            Credibility problems are not uncommon. Is he open to reason? Or does he have too much teenage male chemistry in him to think about and understand what is in his long-term best interest? Do you have Steve's DVD? If you can't get him in person, you'll need the DVD. Let him read and understand the things we are saying here. There are tons of MLB swing video available on the internet (get jsiggy to give you the link). Slow them down (with Quicktime) and go over them with him frame-by-frame. Go over his swing. Communicate. I had to admit to my sons that 75% of what I taught them was wrong. But there was a reason that I was wrong then and that I'm right now. I lacked the "trainer's perspective."

                            The trainer's perspective is now available. He either takes advantage of it while there's still time, or he dooms himselve to eventual failure as he moves into higher levels of competition. I know. I used to be a hitting coach at lower level college ball. I taught pretty much the same swing your son is demonstrating. So I know things about pigeons. His swing MIGHT get him as far as D3, non-scholarship baseball, depending on how athletic he is.

                            Or so it seems to me.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Wogdoggy said: He fights me and says it doesnt feel right,thats how I know its good.lol...problem is you WILL get worse b4 you get better....

                              ...My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated. Then i started looking for other answers,

                              Try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.
                              Woggy, that is one 'ell of a can of worms you've opened up here -- one that (to mix and butcher my metaphors) strikes deep into the heart of many an issue. Many of us coach our kids' teams, but deep in our hearts what we really want is our DD or DS (i.e., our own child) to excel. My 11 y/o kid's only a so-so athlete, so I'll settle for "... to be the sort of hitter that his teammates will sit up and take notice when he gets to the plate."

                              And, like you, I've lost credibility as I try to undo some of what I've taught him for the first few years of his baseball life. Fortunately, I got waylaid by the Setpro posse before I could get too far with the Batspeed learning, but he still fights to use his arms because, you guessed it, the whole "box" and "connection" thing seems unnatural. And, he knows the rewards for what he needs to do -- bust hit butt and alter his mind frame -- aren't going to be great. So, why not go directly to immediate gratification and play video games with his nerd buddies?

                              We see the potential for our kids to surpass their peers -- at least in their mechanics -- but they don't live in these forums and don't have the evidence we do that all this works. So why should they get excited about it? And, frankly, it doesn't help when I suggest going to the batting cage to a kid who last year happily went once a week, but have his mother mutter, "Oh, quit pushing the kid so you can live out your dream." So, the kid sees this as a potential intrafamily bargaining chip, somehow.

                              And I've seen other kids with potential play that chip, literally to the point of: "Sure, Dad, I'll go to the cages today, if we can stop at Gamestop and check out the new video games on the way back."

                              I think it's legitimate to use baseball as a life lesson in this way -- to impress upon the kid that, if he wants something, he'll have to work at it. It would seem that "having" to go to the batting cages or go work on your pitching is a bit easier to have to tolerate than, say, going to the library for three hours to study your science in the hope that you'll become a doctor fifteen years from now.

                              Still, I don't push. If he wants to go the the field and work on his game, I'm available. But I warn him, "Okay, we don't have to go to the cages today, but understand that if you start whining because you didn't make the All-Star team, I'm going to point out that you made your choice back here in February when you played Halo 2 while the other kids were hitting balls."
                              sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                UM..good post . I worked a lot with my son and had the opposite experience. I tried to simplify his swing to no stride , preset bat in 45 slot, drop heel and turn. It was late in his career that he became frustrated as he was hitting from pure athletism but I could see something was not right in his swing. He looked much like the bat dragging posted swings we see here mostly and he had no sense of where the barrel was.

                                As his senior year came around he quit working at it. He began the year at .. 415 at 28 at bats and then lost almost 100 points when people pitched him down and away and my turn methods failed him.

                                I discovered the higher more vertical hand set late in the season and he was able to "Piazza" the away ball to RC and finished fairly strong and made the All- State team.

                                He and I went to a batting cage a few months ago( he has graduated now) and I showed him the better loading pattern and he hit the ball hard in all pitch locations. I saw what I missed for him

                                I had cloned him as a young kid into a swing that he could be quick and he hit many LD shots starting varsity in the 9th grade weighing 130 but all to LF. I modeled his swing after the NYMAN statement " I can create a high level swing with little to no arm action". The corollary might be " but not in everybody". I even printed that statement and high lighted it and had it on my desk. What is did not know is that I was creating a dead front foot and dead hands hitter in a very athletic kid. I was taking away his gifts so he could get around quickly but I removed his ability to release the barrel

                                I would give anything to go back and give him the freedom of movement to load , stride, and use the BHUT action that lets him feel his hands release that clearly fits him . His best friend is a senior and I stayed with the team as a hitting coach. I was able to change him this year and the difference is amazing. He is batting well over .500 and hit a grandslam yesterday.

                                Maybe you should be more open minded to what does " feel right " for him
                                and try some different approaches.

                                A kid must " find the bat barrel" and be able to hit the ball hard with minimal effort over the whole 17 inches of plate to enjoy the game.

                                This story spanned 12 years of experiences with young kids and 25 years of studying swing mechanics and applying them.

                                I wish everybody a great experience with and for their kids. As Steve would tell you..everybody has a little pain buried in their quest
                                Last edited by swingbuster; 04-05-2006, 05:08 AM.

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