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  • wogdoggy
    replied
    Thanks EVERYBODY for the great advice.

    Leave a comment:


  • LClifton
    replied
    Originally posted by Ohfor
    If it was easy everyone would be doing it.
    Everyone of us has told our son's/daughters wrong stuff until we got the right stuff.
    Suck it up and get to work.
    Well stated.
    Believe in your kid when they don't....Just when you sense that they are ready to "just take a break" urge them to excel...

    Woggy,
    WHEN your son improves it will be a great day(s)..
    Go for it, the journey is priceless.
    Hard as H*** and worth it.
    I encourage you to continue,
    we all have had to say, "What we did yesterday may be inaccurate, let's do this......your understanding will get better and so will his.

    LClifton

    Leave a comment:


  • bbjunkie
    replied
    Originally posted by wogdoggy
    I was hoping steve could come out and work some magic with son.But i do know its tough to do in 3 days.
    Having had Steve here last weekend, I can tell you that every kid who walked in the door went out a better batter. I don't know if he can "fix" your kid, but I'm sure he can improve his hitting. Then its up to you to follow through and make sure your son doesn't slip back into bad habits.

    Leave a comment:


  • wogdoggy
    replied
    I have no problem with that until he or you stand in someone elses way.


    stand in somebody's way? wtf does that mean?:noidea

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  • Ohfor
    replied
    Originally posted by Ursa Major
    ... My kid doesn't have that drive or agenda.
    I have no problem with that until he or you stand in someone elses way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ursa Major
    replied
    Swingbuster, thanks for sharing your story. We may have differences among all of us in hitting technique, but sometimes its the broader issues that bring us together. (Or conversely, tear us apart -- like with Ohfor.)

    You suggested, "Maybe you should be more open minded to what does " feel right " for him and try some different approaches." Well, you wouldn't say that if you saw his swing now; he's dropping his hands and his bathead horribly and is missing the high fastball. So, he knows he needs work; the question is whether he can trust me to be the teacher. (And don't ask me to direct him to the team manager; he can't coach hitting for beans, and what he does teach sounds like the worst of Charlie Lau.)

    But, a lot of it comes down to the kid's desire. Ohfor scolds, "Suck it up and get to work." What good does that do if we just chase our kids out of baseball and impair our relationships with them (and, as Woggy notes, our wives to boot)? Ohfor's kid wanted it badly enough to defy the odds and develop from a weak early high school hitter to a college player.

    My kid doesn't have that drive or agenda. Hey, he just told me today that he wasn't all that interested in going to Disneyland over spring break; he'd really like to start learning computer programming!

    Leave a comment:


  • wogdoggy
    replied
    lets go ohfor two out of three.lol...when i come to st louis im gonna look you up.
    Last edited by wogdoggy; 04-05-2006, 06:01 AM.

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  • Ohfor
    replied
    Whaaaa. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

    All because something isn't easy.

    If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

    Everyone of us has told our son's/daughters wrong stuff until we got the right stuff.

    Suck it up and get to work.
    Last edited by Ohfor; 04-05-2006, 06:02 AM.

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  • wogdoggy
    replied
    Steve will not fix him in one or three days. Steve will show him how elite athletes swing a bat and will do "any number of things" to help him begin to move in more athletic, efficient ways.


    I know steve is an instructor not a magician,but the bottom line is SOMEBODY else has to do it at this point.i have thrown to much [email protected] at this kid in the last year.he is learning to hate me as much as my wife does...lol..

    Leave a comment:


  • wogdoggy
    replied
    So I know things about pigeons. His swing MIGHT get him as far as D3, non-scholarship baseball, depending on how athletic he is.


    When college time comes around We will pick a college for academics.Not one neccessarily where he can play ball.Brains will take a kid 99.9 percent further in life than a college baseball carreer...I really do appreciate everybodys help here.

    Thanks ursa and swingy for telling your stories.
    Yeah we all have visions of our kids going "PRO" but when its over the memories of the team the bus rides etc etc.will last forever.

    BTW fungo great post thanks
    Last edited by wogdoggy; 04-05-2006, 05:25 AM.

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  • swingbuster
    replied
    UM..good post . I worked a lot with my son and had the opposite experience. I tried to simplify his swing to no stride , preset bat in 45 slot, drop heel and turn. It was late in his career that he became frustrated as he was hitting from pure athletism but I could see something was not right in his swing. He looked much like the bat dragging posted swings we see here mostly and he had no sense of where the barrel was.

    As his senior year came around he quit working at it. He began the year at .. 415 at 28 at bats and then lost almost 100 points when people pitched him down and away and my turn methods failed him.

    I discovered the higher more vertical hand set late in the season and he was able to "Piazza" the away ball to RC and finished fairly strong and made the All- State team.

    He and I went to a batting cage a few months ago( he has graduated now) and I showed him the better loading pattern and he hit the ball hard in all pitch locations. I saw what I missed for him

    I had cloned him as a young kid into a swing that he could be quick and he hit many LD shots starting varsity in the 9th grade weighing 130 but all to LF. I modeled his swing after the NYMAN statement " I can create a high level swing with little to no arm action". The corollary might be " but not in everybody". I even printed that statement and high lighted it and had it on my desk. What is did not know is that I was creating a dead front foot and dead hands hitter in a very athletic kid. I was taking away his gifts so he could get around quickly but I removed his ability to release the barrel

    I would give anything to go back and give him the freedom of movement to load , stride, and use the BHUT action that lets him feel his hands release that clearly fits him . His best friend is a senior and I stayed with the team as a hitting coach. I was able to change him this year and the difference is amazing. He is batting well over .500 and hit a grandslam yesterday.

    Maybe you should be more open minded to what does " feel right " for him
    and try some different approaches.

    A kid must " find the bat barrel" and be able to hit the ball hard with minimal effort over the whole 17 inches of plate to enjoy the game.

    This story spanned 12 years of experiences with young kids and 25 years of studying swing mechanics and applying them.

    I wish everybody a great experience with and for their kids. As Steve would tell you..everybody has a little pain buried in their quest
    Last edited by swingbuster; 04-05-2006, 05:08 AM.

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  • Ursa Major
    replied
    Wogdoggy said: He fights me and says it doesnt feel right,thats how I know its good.lol...problem is you WILL get worse b4 you get better....

    ...My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated. Then i started looking for other answers,

    Try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.
    Woggy, that is one 'ell of a can of worms you've opened up here -- one that (to mix and butcher my metaphors) strikes deep into the heart of many an issue. Many of us coach our kids' teams, but deep in our hearts what we really want is our DD or DS (i.e., our own child) to excel. My 11 y/o kid's only a so-so athlete, so I'll settle for "... to be the sort of hitter that his teammates will sit up and take notice when he gets to the plate."

    And, like you, I've lost credibility as I try to undo some of what I've taught him for the first few years of his baseball life. Fortunately, I got waylaid by the Setpro posse before I could get too far with the Batspeed learning, but he still fights to use his arms because, you guessed it, the whole "box" and "connection" thing seems unnatural. And, he knows the rewards for what he needs to do -- bust hit butt and alter his mind frame -- aren't going to be great. So, why not go directly to immediate gratification and play video games with his nerd buddies?

    We see the potential for our kids to surpass their peers -- at least in their mechanics -- but they don't live in these forums and don't have the evidence we do that all this works. So why should they get excited about it? And, frankly, it doesn't help when I suggest going to the batting cage to a kid who last year happily went once a week, but have his mother mutter, "Oh, quit pushing the kid so you can live out your dream." So, the kid sees this as a potential intrafamily bargaining chip, somehow.

    And I've seen other kids with potential play that chip, literally to the point of: "Sure, Dad, I'll go to the cages today, if we can stop at Gamestop and check out the new video games on the way back."

    I think it's legitimate to use baseball as a life lesson in this way -- to impress upon the kid that, if he wants something, he'll have to work at it. It would seem that "having" to go to the batting cages or go work on your pitching is a bit easier to have to tolerate than, say, going to the library for three hours to study your science in the hope that you'll become a doctor fifteen years from now.

    Still, I don't push. If he wants to go the the field and work on his game, I'm available. But I warn him, "Okay, we don't have to go to the cages today, but understand that if you start whining because you didn't make the All-Star team, I'm going to point out that you made your choice back here in February when you played Halo 2 while the other kids were hitting balls."

    Leave a comment:


  • fungo22
    replied
    In my opinion, Ohfor is right on in what he has been saying in this thread.

    1. The young man has a classic hands/arm swing pattern: He strides with weight shift to create momentum to help his hands get started. He stands up and opens his front side so that his lower body does not obstruct "throwing the barrel," "throwing the hands" or taking "his hands to the ball." He "drags" the bat with his hands/arms. He does it pretty well so I would predict he has experienced quite a bit of success. But his success will start diminishing as he faces 80 (and above) mph pitching. His batspeed is probably pretty good, but his swing is too long and slow. His posture is not efficient, so he will have trouble quickly getting the barrel on an accurate swing path, especially on pitches up and down in the zone.

    2. What is needed is not a "fix." What is needed is a more athletic, efficient way to get the bat to the ball. By "efficient," I mean quicker, more accurate barrel path and with more power. By "athletic," I mean in the same way that elite athletes at the highest levels of baseball get their bats to the ball.

    Steve will not fix him in one or three days. Steve will show him how elite athletes swing a bat and will do "any number of things" to help him begin to move in more athletic, efficient ways. It will definitely not "feel right" because he is not used to moving like an elite athlete. He is used to doing it the way most athletic kids end up doing it ... and never reaching their potential. After practicing these new movements, they will begin to feel more natural.

    Credibility problems are not uncommon. Is he open to reason? Or does he have too much teenage male chemistry in him to think about and understand what is in his long-term best interest? Do you have Steve's DVD? If you can't get him in person, you'll need the DVD. Let him read and understand the things we are saying here. There are tons of MLB swing video available on the internet (get jsiggy to give you the link). Slow them down (with Quicktime) and go over them with him frame-by-frame. Go over his swing. Communicate. I had to admit to my sons that 75% of what I taught them was wrong. But there was a reason that I was wrong then and that I'm right now. I lacked the "trainer's perspective."

    The trainer's perspective is now available. He either takes advantage of it while there's still time, or he dooms himselve to eventual failure as he moves into higher levels of competition. I know. I used to be a hitting coach at lower level college ball. I taught pretty much the same swing your son is demonstrating. So I know things about pigeons. His swing MIGHT get him as far as D3, non-scholarship baseball, depending on how athletic he is.

    Or so it seems to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • jsiggy
    replied
    Originally posted by swingbuster
    .
    I can fix that in 10 swings and then see how bad the rest really is...usually not bad
    I would like to see the 10 swing fix you keep talking about. Could you get a kid who needs this fix and video his 11 swings, so I can see the results?

    If you do not have a place or way to post, I will host the video clip.

    If you do not know how to get it from tape to video, PM me and I will give you my address and reimburse you for the mini-DV and create the video (and post it).

    If you do not have a video camera, PM me and I will reimburse you the cost to rent one.

    Leave a comment:


  • jsiggy
    replied
    Originally posted by wogdoggy
    What can I do to fix this kid before STEVE gets here.
    From your comments I gather Steve is coming fairly soon. If so, I would recommend just leaving your son alone for now. Give him time to just play and psyche himself up for the changes he'll soon be making. Nothing worse than changing yet again only to find out the change you were working so hard to get into his swing, is not something you want or a good way to add it.

    Originally posted by wogdoggy
    I was hoping steve could come out and work some magic with son.But i do know its tough to do in 3 days.
    If he's like all the other kids I know of he will improve while Steve is there.

    More importantly you and he will know what to do afterwards... the time won't be as important as you'll have a direction which works and you'll be crystal clear on that direction.

    Originally posted by wogdoggy
    I'm going to come clean here..My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated.
    Then i started looking for other answers,

    try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.
    IMO, another reason to leave him alone for now.
    Last edited by jsiggy; 04-04-2006, 09:20 PM.

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