Dr. Marshall's Video Available

[DodgerJon]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but on Dr. Marshal's website, question 827 on his 2006 Q&A's post the first half of his 2006 pitching video. Now you can see for yourself the master at work.

1. www.lishosting.com/main1.asx
2. www.lishosting.com/main2.asx
3. www.lishosting.com/xrays.asx
4. www.lishosting.com/wweight1.asx
5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

[Mark H]

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/baseball/message.cfm?id=1685561

More Marshall.

[hplant25]

Enough is Enough

I am a pitching kinda guy, and I am lucky to know Dick Mills and Tom House personaly. I dont know how there teachings vary from Mike Marshall's, but I doubt they are very different. Both Dick and tom both advacate proper mechanics to pitch with your body and not your arm wich i think everyone is clear on now. The most inportant thing that I can tell anyone about pitching that is not mechanicaly related is to train your body to pitch in the wieght room as well. I positive Mike Marshall also teaches this. Your muscles have to be in pitching shape to keep from hurting your arm bottom line. Roger Clemens is well known for his off-season work ethic as you all may know, so it goes without saying that having functional strength is as important as good mechanics. Somthing that is advocated by every TOM, DICK and MIKE

[Mark H]

You may want to do a little/ a lot of reading up on Marshall. You may be surprised. You might want to do some serious googling on Mills and House as well.

[Baseball gLove]

Where's Nyman when you need him?

[jojab]

Both Dick and tom both advacate proper mechanics to pitch with your body and not your arm wich i think everyone is clear on now.

How to do you pitch without your arm?

[Encinitas]

A wise bird once said about 50% of your velocity comes from your arm. So no it isn't clear and accepted that we throw with the body and not the arm. We optimize arm action first and foremost.

[jimmiemac]

I am a pitching kinda guy, and I am lucky to know Dick Mills and Tom House personaly. I dont know how there teachings vary from Mike Marshall's, but I doubt they are very different. Both Dick and tom both advacate proper mechanics to pitch with your body and not your arm wich i think everyone is clear on now. The most inportant thing that I can tell anyone about pitching that is not mechanicaly related is to train your body to pitch in the wieght room as well. I positive Mike Marshall also teaches this. Your muscles have to be in pitching shape to keep from hurting your arm bottom line. Roger Clemens is well known for his off-season work ethic as you all may know, so it goes without saying that having functional strength is as important as good mechanics. Somthing that is advocated by every TOM, DICK and MIKE

How well does that relate to a pitcher such as Randy Johnson? I agree that improving the body can help, but the arm is the key ingredient. Don't believe me? Try this:

How your arm straight out (or at any angle you desire) and maintian that exact angle and position in relation to the body (dont move your arm) and try to throw as far as you can just using the body.

Now do just the opposite. Plant your body in a pitching position and maintain that position and just using your arm throw a baseball as far as you can.

Certainly you throw harder and more accurately combing both the arm & body, but of the two distint areas, which is more important? Do not ignore the importance of developing the arm.

[Jake Patterson]

5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

It was MM's weight throwing training that turned off the certified physical therapists I reviewed the clips with. Both had very negative reactions because of the potential damage to the elbow and shoulder. In fairness to MM I am not a PT and do not fully understand what they are concerned with.

I lieu of the bantering that has been going on about MM for years, I would like to see MM in an open forum discussing his methods with other professionals to include orthopedists who specialize in sport medicine.

The problem I have with MM -and his detractors- is that the PT's and Dr's I have reviewed the clips with seem to like much of what he does, but have problems with other aspects. Intelligent discussion, or at least listening to intelligent discussion would help.

[GFK]

Jake, what one has to remember is the frame of reference for each. A professional athlete or a teenager aspiring to be a professional athlete is going to need to take greater risks than the average Joe. The PT’s and MD’s are not concerned with what it will take to get to a controlled 95 mph fastball. They are concerned with the general well being of the person. If the person never obtains a 95 mph fastball but goes through life without shoulder and elbow problems, the PT’s and MD’s call that a “win”. If the aspiring pro athlete has a successful pro career and later in life has elbow / shoulder problems, I bet it is safe to say they would consider their career as a success and the elbow / shoulder problems as occupational hazards.

Risk : Reward ratios.

Just for the record, I am not a MM advocate.

[Ursa Major]

But, GFK, where's the evidence that there will be a reward for this risky behavior? A kid pondering steroid use can at least look to Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti, et al. and say, gee, those guys really took their careers into the stratosphere after juicing.

A kid contemplating Marshall's weight training program in the face of trainers' concerns has absolutely no evidence that it will help get him to the next level, not to mention the rest of Marshall's program. So, why take the risk?

It's interesting that Coach 45 dropped his son out of the baseball world and into Marshall's hands about a year ago to remake him into a Marshall type pitcher. The Coach shared with me some video of the kid pitching and it looked like he had substantial potential. We've heard almost nothing here since this thread's original post. It would be nice to here how the kid has come along, as I think he'd be a good litmus test for the Marshall program.

Coach???

[Jake Patterson]

A professional athlete or a teenager aspiring to be a professional athlete is going to need to take greater risks than the average Joe. The PT’s and MD’s are not concerned with what it will take to get to a controlled 95 mph fastball. They are concerned with the general well being of the person.

I somewhat agree ...
The PT's I work with specialize in athletics. They understand the goals of the athletes and have programs to help pitchers achieve their goals. Where the real good PT's are helpful is when they can analyze the bio-mechanics and physical condition of the player and determine whether or not their goals are reasonable. Most players, especially teenage players, taking MM's film and strapping ten pound weights to their hands and start throwing is dangerous no matter hoe you slice it.

Again I admire MM's dedication and do plan on visiting him at some point. Open discussion with other professionals is what is really needed. It's science not voodoo.

[GFK]

But, GFK, where's the evidence that there will be a reward for this risky behavior? A kid pondering steroid use can at least look to Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti, et al. and say, gee, those guys really took their careers into the stratosphere after juicing.

A kid contemplating Marshall's weight training program in the face of trainers' concerns has absolutely no evidence that it will help get him to the next level, not to mention the rest of Marshall's program. So, why take the risk?

It's interesting that Coach 45 dropped his son out of the baseball world and into Marshall's hands about a year ago to remake him into a Marshall type pitcher. The Coach shared with me some video of the kid pitching and it looked like he had substantial potential. We've heard almost nothing here since this thread's original post. It would be nice to here how the kid has come along, as I think he'd be a good litmus test for the Marshall program.

Coach???

I know nothing about MM so I will leave his stuff to others to digest.

With respect to evidence of reward, if you knew you were going to be rewarded for a specific risk, then that sort of takes the risk portion out of it. That is why it is called risk. Now one can use some brains in this. Look at the long-toss studies and weighted ball studies. What do the results show? Look at the different gurus and compare what they teach to what the MLB pitchers are actually doing.

[Chris O'Leary]

A wise bird once said about 50% of your velocity comes from your arm. So no it isn't clear and accepted that we throw with the body and not the arm. We optimize arm action first and foremost.

I wouldn't believe any of these studies.

I once read a study that said that 90% of velocity comes from the arm (which is complete garbage and based on a VERY naive understanding of the throwing motion).

That's like saying that 100% of a car's velocity comes from the tires. It ignores all of the things that make the wheels spin.

[Chris O'Leary]

How to do you pitch without your arm?

The majority of the force is generated by the muscles of the lower body and torso. They drive the shoulders which drive the arm which drive the ball.

This isn't just me saying this.

I once read a piece by Nolan Ryan in which he used a great analogy of comparing a pitcher to a car. He suggested that the legs, hips, and torso are the engine, the shoulders and arm are the transmission, and the hand is the tires.

I think that is just about right.