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Back Leg Action

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  • #46
    Originally posted by 4for4 View Post
    Very good point and video. I didn't think FF5 new or understood what was being described. Courtesy of some video supplied 3 years ago by Swingtraining.net, I coined the term flex/extend/flex for this action.
    As an FYI, RudyJ referrs to this action as "reaching" and stresses "not striding".

    Others refer to it as a "sitting process" or a "loading action" while "reaching" or "maintaining hip coil - or the feeling of continued weighting of the backside". If you recall Enc spoke of intiating the portion of the swing we are attempting to discuss with a weighted backside ... and this is the action to help maintain that weighted feeling.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
      As an FYI, RudyJ referrs to this action as "reaching" and stresses "not striding".

      Others refer to it as a "sitting process" or a "loading action" while "reaching" or "maintaining hip coil - or the feeling of continued weighting of the backside". If you recall Enc spoke of intiating the portion of the swing we are attempting to discuss with a weighted backside ... and this is the action to help maintain that weighted feeling.
      Everyone has descriptors that work for them and are based on their frames of reference. Ride the back leg is how I began to learn and understand it over 5 years ago.

      I'd like you to address my questions and JJA's as well, regarding Yeager. Thx.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by 4for4 View Post
        No sir...its germane to this thread. Please take a stab at quantifying this for the readers.
        The short answer (and incomplete answer) is that the bulk of rotation is often seen during the blocking process.

        Now ... please provide your input on the initiation process of the thrust, or if you like, the muscle action and portions of the body that are responsible for the intiation of forward hip rotation.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
          The short answer (and incomplete answer) is that the bulk of rotation is often seen during the blocking process.

          Now ... please provide your input on the initiation process of the thrust, or if you like, the muscle action and portions of the body that are responsible for the intiation of forward hip rotation.
          Perhaps I'll do that for you once you answer my question completely. I note that you make claims about another's understanding of the swing, then come back and ask questions about the functional realities that you yourself refuse to answer. Please address the Yeager question completely and then we can get to the functional realities.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by JJA View Post
            FFS,

            There is no question Yeager believes that linear motion gets translated into rotaional motion by the "push-block" action. Previously you have supported that position quite vehemently. If you recall I was the guy who originally posted Bagwell as a rebuttal to this position and both you and HG refused to address this. I can go back and get those posts if necessary. It now appears that you're almost ridiculing this same position that Chris is taking which isn't far from Yeager.

            Let's try it this way. Do you agree with Yeager that forward momentum being translated into rotational motion via "push-block" is a significant power generator?

            -JJA
            Yeager himself uses Bagwell as an example in his description.

            If this has come across as badgering, then I sincerely apologize. I'm asking for a description of the initiation process of what I believe Chris considers being forward hip rotation. IMO he came dangerously close and described the setup ... but the initiation process, the firing process, the action, ... was left out.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by 4for4 View Post
              Everyone has descriptors that work for them and are based on their frames of reference. Ride the back leg is how I began to learn and understand it over 5 years ago.

              I'd like you to address my questions and JJA's as well, regarding Yeager. Thx.
              Why is it you need Yeager's description to give your description?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                Yeager himself uses Bagwell as an example in his description.
                Once again, please answer the question completely. All you have done to this point is sidestep it.

                If this has come across as badgering, then I sincerely apologize.
                Consider directing your apology to the poster that you essentially claimed was clueless.

                I'm asking for a description of the initiation process of what I believe Chris considers being forward hip rotation. IMO he came dangerously close and described the setup ... but the initiation process, the firing process, the action, ... was left out.
                What is your descriptor of the initiation process? I'm also curious if you will address it at a functional level.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                  Why is it you need Yeager's description to give your description?
                  This is really a game for you isn't it? Please answer the question about Yeager. I'm getting the sense I know why you won't. I would like to be disabused of this notion. Please take a stab at it.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    FFS,

                    When you write something like

                    Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing
                    But we all have to start somewhere. Perhaps dropping the claim to be an expert would be recommended until he's up to speed.
                    when you yourself took the same exact position and defended it strongly only a year ago is really calling the kettle black. It's OK you won't admit that you know longer believe what Yeager wrote despite your strong defense of that position a short time ago. On the other hand, given this experience you might consider cutting others some slack instead of ridiculing them.

                    -JJA
                    The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by 4for4 View Post
                      This is really a game for you isn't it? Please answer the question about Yeager. I'm getting the sense I know why you won't. I would like to be disabused of this notion. Please take a stab at it.
                      No ... I'm sincerely interested in various views of the initiation process for the firing of the hips.

                      If I understand your question correctly you want to know if rotation exists prior to front side blocking. Yes it does.

                      I'm not really interested in hashing out the two thoughts of both camps ... as I've already been through this and believe from a users perspective that the "forward by turning" concept and the "push" concept need not be at direct odds ... at least not from a user's perspective. I'm sure you understand Yeager's position ... that being how one could explain that the COM moves forward without pushing.

                      The answer is that rotation DOES occur prior to blocking ... and IMO JBooth and others have given reasonably good answers as to why. I especially like JBooth's work in this area.

                      Now ... please describe the muscle action for the initiation of hip rotation.
                      Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 09-30-2009, 08:57 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JJA View Post
                        FFS,

                        When you write something like



                        when you yourself took the same exact position and defended it strongly only a year ago is really calling the kettle black. It's OK you won't admit that you know longer believe what Yeager wrote despite your strong defense of that position a short time ago. On the other hand, given this experience you might consider cutting others some slack instead of ridiculing them.

                        -JJA

                        No ... I'm not an expert. I'm a student of the game. I'm constantly learning.

                        Sure ... I forgive Chris.

                        Let's see ... Chris recently wrote the following.

                        Chris O:
                        While he's probably doing what you want him to do in the clip above, it looks like he's trying to push the hips around from the back side, rather than the front side. While I have seen this in some fast pitch hitters, with good results, I have never seen this in major league baseball players.

                        I'm trying to understand the various theories for the action that initiates what some people refer to as "hip rotation".

                        Chris ... from this description is it your contention that there is a muscle group in the front of the body that initiates hip rotation?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by wogdoggy View Post
                          start the clip earlier..
                          Here's the whole sequence from stride through POC...



                          Tell me if you want some frames stopped or slowed down.
                          Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                          I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                            Chris ... from this description is it your contention that there is a muscle group in the front of the body that initiates hip rotation?
                            No.

                            The process starts in the back side and then transitions through the core and into the front side.

                            The problem is that I know some people who think it's all back side driven, with no core or front side transition.
                            Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                            I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                            Comment


                            • #59


                              Show me the extension of the rear leg you are talking about. You show it from behind so it can look like anything. Do you really know what is happening, when you say he is extending? Could it be as he moves forward. The front leg is turning in and the rear glute is showing itself to the pitcher? Giving the illussion of extension. The hips are coiling/cocking/loading whatever you want to call it. It isn't a push yet. It isn't extension either.

                              As for the thrust. The hitter isn't trying to rotate the hips. He is trying to drive the rear hip in as straight of a line as he can. Trying to focus the energy through the ball. The rear hip pushes the front hip out of the way. You could say the front hip clears to give the rear hip some where to go but then you will get asked how does the front hip clear. The answer is the rear hip pushes it out of the way.

                              As has been stated the hip moves as a unit. As the rear hip is thrusted forward the front hip is driven back. This driving back of the front hip is what pulls the lead leg straight. Yes I know, how can this happen with the weight shifted to the front foot. The answer is it just does. If you are trying to time a push back with the lead leg, good luck. MLB pitching is to filthy to have to have all these different timing mechanisms going off in your head. Having to time the push back with the lead leg is one you don't want to have to worry about.

                              I know you will say will I don't worry about it it just happens naturally. Then I would say you don't face good pitching or you are not pushing back with the lead leg. It is just catching the transfer of weight, while remaining firm and then getting slammed shut by the hips continuos rotation. Yes I said rotation. The rear hip tries to go in as straight of line as possible but it will eventually become rotational.

                              Edited to say: Looking in slow mo can some times be deceiving. You can not see the explosive nature of the swing. What you see as a bunch of small moves is really one explosive move.

                              4x4 and JJA,

                              Just in time for the rescue. Jump in start a fight, so that things start to get ugly and then hopefully the thread gets closed. What a shame.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
                                Here's the whole sequence from stride through POC...



                                Tell me if you want some frames stopped or slowed down.

                                This may help us get to the point.

                                In the video clip below ... what muscle action, or body action, is initiating hip rotation.

                                Comment

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