Announcement

Collapse

Updated Baseball Fever Policy

Baseball Fever Policy

I. Purpose of this announcement:

This announcement describes the policies pertaining to the operation of Baseball Fever.

Baseball Fever is a moderated baseball message board which encourages and facilitates research and information exchange among fans of our national pastime. The intent of the Baseball Fever Policy is to ensure that Baseball Fever remains an extremely high quality, extremely low "noise" environment.

Baseball Fever is administrated by three principal administrators:
webmaster - Baseball Fever Owner
The Commissioner - Baseball Fever Administrator
Macker - Baseball Fever Administrator

And a group of forum specific super moderators. The role of the moderator is to keep Baseball Fever smoothly and to screen posts for compliance with our policy. The moderators are ALL volunteer positions, so please be patient and understanding of any delays you might experience in correspondence.

II. Comments about our policy:

Any suggestions on this policy may be made directly to the webmaster.

III. Acknowledgments:

This document was based on a similar policy used by SABR.

IV. Requirements for participation on Baseball Fever:

Participation on Baseball Fever is available to all baseball fans with a valid email address, as verified by the forum's automated system, which then in turn creates a single validated account. Multiple accounts by a single user are prohibited.

By registering, you agree to adhere to the policies outlined in this document and to conduct yourself accordingly. Abuse of the forum, by repeated failure to abide by these policies, will result in your access being blocked to the forum entirely.

V. Baseball Fever Netiquette:

Participants at Baseball Fever are required to adhere to these principles, which are outlined in this section.
a. All posts to Baseball Fever should be written in clear, concise English, with proper grammar and accurate spelling. The use of abbreviations should be kept to a minimum; when abbreviation is necessary, they should be either well-known (such as etc.), or explained on their first use in your post.

b. Conciseness is a key attribute of a good post.

c. Quote only the portion of a post to which you are responding.

d. Standard capitalization and punctuation make a large difference in the readability of a post. TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS is considered to be "shouting"; it is a good practice to limit use of all capitals to words which you wish to emphasize.

e. It is our policy NOT to transmit any defamatory or illegal materials.

f. Personal attacks of any type against Baseball Fever readers will not be tolerated. In these instances the post will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the personal attack via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue personal attacks will be banned from the site.

g. It is important to remember that many contextual clues available in face-to-face discussion, such as tone of voice and facial expression, are lost in the electronic forum. As a poster, try to be alert for phrasing that might be misinterpreted by your audience to be offensive; as a reader, remember to give the benefit of the doubt and not to take umbrage too easily. There are many instances in which a particular choice of words or phrasing can come across as being a personal attack where none was intended.

h. The netiquette described above (a-g) often uses the term "posts", but applies equally to Private Messages.

VI. Baseball Fever User Signature Policy

A signature is a piece of text that some members may care to have inserted at the end of ALL of their posts, a little like the closing of a letter. You can set and / or change your signature by editing your profile in the UserCP. Since it is visible on ALL your posts, the following policy must be adhered to:

Signature Composition
Font size limit: No larger than size 2 (This policy is a size 2)
Style: Bold and italics are permissible
Character limit: No more than 500 total characters
Lines: No more than 4 lines
Colors: Most colors are permissible, but those which are hard to discern against the gray background (yellow, white, pale gray) should be avoided
Images/Graphics: Allowed, but nothing larger than 20k and Content rules must be followed

Signature Content
No advertising is permitted
Nothing political or religious
Nothing obscene, vulgar, defamatory or derogatory
Links to personal blogs/websites are permissible - with the webmaster's written consent
A Link to your Baseball Fever Blog does not require written consent and is recommended
Quotes must be attributed. Non-baseball quotes are permissible as long as they are not religious or political

Please adhere to these rules when you create your signature. Failure to do so will result in a request to comply by a moderator. If you do not comply within a reasonable amount of time, the signature will be removed and / or edited by an Administrator. Baseball Fever reserves the right to edit and / or remove any or all of your signature line at any time without contacting the account holder.

VII. Appropriate and inappropriate topics for Baseball Fever:

Most concisely, the test for whether a post is appropriate for Baseball Fever is: "Does this message discuss our national pastime in an interesting manner?" This post can be direct or indirect: posing a question, asking for assistance, providing raw data or citations, or discussing and constructively critiquing existing posts. In general, a broad interpretation of "baseball related" is used.

Baseball Fever is not a promotional environment. Advertising of products, web sites, etc., whether for profit or not-for-profit, is not permitted. At the webmaster's discretion, brief one-time announcements for products or services of legitimate baseball interest and usefulness may be allowed. If advertising is posted to the site it will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the post via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue advertising will be banned from the site. If the advertising is spam-related, pornography-based, or a "visit-my-site" type post / private message, no warning at all will be provided, and the member will be banned immediately without a warning.

It is considered appropriate to post a URL to a page which specifically and directly answers a question posted on the list (for example, it would be permissible to post a link to a page containing home-road splits, even on a site which has advertising or other commercial content; however, it would not be appropriate to post the URL of the main page of the site). The site reserves the right to limit the frequency of such announcements by any individual or group.

In keeping with our test for a proper topic, posting to Baseball Fever should be treated as if you truly do care. This includes posting information that is, to the best of your knowledge, complete and accurate at the time you post. Any errors or ambiguities you catch later should be acknowledged and corrected in the thread, since Baseball Fever is sometimes considered to be a valuable reference for research information.

VIII. Role of the moderator:

When a post is submitted to Baseball Fever, it is forwarded by the server automatically and seen immediately. The moderator may:
a. Leave the thread exactly like it was submitted. This is the case 95% of the time.

b. Immediately delete the thread as inappropriate for Baseball Fever. Examples include advertising, personal attacks, or spam. This is the case 1% of the time.

c. Move the thread. If a member makes a post about the Marlins in the Yankees forum it will be moved to the appropriate forum. This is the case 3% of the time.

d. Edit the message due to an inappropriate item. This is the case 1% of the time. There have been new users who will make a wonderful post, then add to their signature line (where your name / handle appears) a tagline that is a pure advertisement. This tagline will be removed, a note will be left in the message so he/she is aware of the edit, and personal contact will be made to the poster telling them what has been edited and what actions need to be taken to prevent further edits.

The moderators perform no checks on posts to verify factual or logical accuracy. While he/she may point out gross errors in factual data in replies to the thread, the moderator does not act as an "accuracy" editor. Also moderation is not a vehicle for censorship of individuals and/or opinions, and the moderator's decisions should not be taken personally.

IX. Legal aspects of participation in Baseball Fever:

By submitting a post to Baseball Fever, you grant Baseball Fever permission to distribute your message to the forum. Other rights pertaining to the post remain with the ORIGINAL author, and you may not redistribute or retransmit any posts by any others, in whole or in part, without the express consent of the original author.

The messages appearing on Baseball Fever contain the opinions and views of their respective authors and are not necessarily those of Baseball Fever, or of the Baseball Almanac family of sites.

Sincerely,

Sean Holtz, Webmaster of Baseball Almanac & Baseball Fever
www.baseball-almanac.com | www.baseball-fever.com
"Baseball Almanac: Sharing Baseball. Sharing History."
See more
See less

Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    The increase in acceleration of the head of the bat interacting with the rolling shutter.

    A rolling shutter doesn't take a global snapshot of the entire frame. Rather it scans from the top of the frame to the bottom and then starts over again.

    This is a known artifact and a product of a consumer grade CMOS sensor.
    Is there a reason that only the bat is distorted and not other things like the stripe on his pants?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
      Unfortunately, yes.

      When the bat is nearly vertical, the artifact will be more prominent.

      I had hoped it said something about acceleration or deceleration, but it doesn't seem to.
      But it appears to answer the deceleration portion later in the swing also.

      What I'm saying is the bend, the increase in bend, and the inversion in bend ... all add up ... are you certain it is coincidence?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
        Hmmm, interesting observation. . . I do see Jim's bat blur also. . . but not until frame 21 when his "bat" is parallel to the batter's box. . .



        . . . so if it's only "momentum transfer due to the rotation of the body" . . . what force/energy causes Uggla's (Frame #50) and DeRosa's (Frame 64/65) bats to "bend" or Rose's bat to blur while they are still almost perpendicular to the batter's box and not much further in the swing as Jim's PVC box swing?

        mud,

        The difference between his PVC "bat" and a real bat should, I hope, be obvious. The PVC bat is not unhinging in exactly the same way as a real players because your body isn't made of PVC. However, the momentum transfer that is occurring is exactly the same as that which occurs in a real swing.

        I'm always amused by the definitive statements that some feel can be gleaned from "bat blur". Any amateur photographer will tell you the blur is due to the fact the motion is happening while the shutter is open, which is why of course you don't see "bat blur" in super slo mo when the frame rate is so much higher. The idea that you can gain insight to the swing based on bad camera settings is really quite amusing.

        The point of this, and why I like Booth's various demonstrations over the years (and Joof's before that), is they demonstrate very conclusively that you can get a decent representation of the swing without any fictitious "handle torque" being applied, and for only $5 of materials. And yes, in all the swings you posted, and any swing of any MLBer, what you're seeing in the motion of the bat is momentum transfer. Call it the kinetic chain, but that's what you're seeing. Extremely difficult concept for any non-physicist to understand (and even hard for some physicists).

        -JJA
        The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
          Hmmm, interesting observation. . . I do see Jim's bat blur also. . . but not until frame 21 when his "bat" is parallel to the batter's box. . .



          . . . so if it's only "momentum transfer due to the rotation of the body" . . . what force/energy causes Uggla's (Frame #50) and DeRosa's (Frame 64/65) bats to "bend" or Rose's bat to blur while they are still almost perpendicular to the batter's box and not much further in the swing as Jim's PVC box swing?
          I'm not sure ... but I think the answer we're suppossed to believe is that "rolling shutter" causes this monotonic increase in the bend of the barrel. It's just a coincidence.

          I'm not so sure though.

          I'm going to have someone knowledgable on the topic review this tomorrow.

          Comment


          • #35
            FFS,

            Check out

            http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/...ndle-flex.html

            The good professor writes

            At this moment in time, I don't believe that strain curves showing the strain in the handle during the swing provide sufficient evidence of a diving board mode that could cause whip action. Granted, I have not yet investigated this effect in some of the more flexible composite handled bats currently available. However, even in a composite handled bat I don't believe whip action would be significant enough to actually influence the collision between bat and ball. If handle flex were significant enough to noticeably increase batted-ball speed, as Noble claims it does, I would expect the handle flex during the swing to be large enough that it could be observed in a high speed video of the swing. But, so far - after studying more than a dozen very clear overhead shots of baseball and softball players swinging "flexible" handle bats - I have not been able to detect any noticeable flexing of the bat prior to impact. Therefore,I have a very hard time believing that a typical softball or baseball bat will flex enough to be noticed during a swing. I say "typical" because in my laboratory I do have a couple of bats with extremely flexible handles for which I would not be surprised to see some flex during the swing. However, given what I think I know about the stiffness of wood and aluminum bats, I would definitely not expect to see any "whip action" or flex during the swing for wood and metal bats.

            You might write him and send him Chris's video to satisfy your curiuosity if this explanation isn't convincing to you.

            -JJA
            The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by JJA View Post
              Once again, a clear, unambiguous demonstration of what really happens in the baseball swing. What you're seeing is momentum transfer due to the rotation of the body. Why people can't understand this demonstration is completely beyond me. And lookey there, I do think I see bat blur there, all without any handle torque :-).

              Nice job again Booth.
              This is quite a shock to me. For I still clearly remember the days when JJA, Jofus, 4for4, Ohfor, and many others said Jim was completely off base on his analysis of the swing and with what he teaches. As far as I know Jim hasn't changed his views on what he teaches over the last few years. Interesting that all these other views have.
              You have to piss with the puppies before you can bark with the dogs. - SFC Norman Dutram, Company B, 242d Combat Engineers

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JJA View Post
                mud,

                The difference between his PVC "bat" and a real bat should, I hope, be obvious. The PVC bat is not unhinging in exactly the same way as a real players because your body isn't made of PVC. However, the momentum transfer that is occurring is exactly the same as that which occurs in a real swing.
                You're not serious about this are you??? First you come here and tell everyone that Jim's PVC bat demo gives "a clear, unambiguous demonstration of what really happens in the baseball swing" . . . but then when questioned about it, you "hope" that it would be obvious that the "PVC bat is not unhinging in exactly the same way as a real players because your body isn't made of PVC".

                So JJA, please tell me . . . is it "a clear, unambiguous demonstration" or is it that the "PVC bat is not unhinging in exactly the same way as a real players because your body"; that therefore, really doesn't prove a thing? . . . maybe the third time will be a charm for you.

                Originally posted by JJA
                I'm always amused by the definitive statements that some feel can be gleaned from "bat blur". Any amateur photographer will tell you the blur is due to the fact the motion is happening while the shutter is open, which is why of course you don't see "bat blur" in super slo mo when the frame rate is so much higher. The idea that you can gain insight to the swing based on bad camera settings is really quite amusing.
                Wonderful, you find it amusing, but YOU were the first one that brought it up when you said, "I do think I see bat blur there, all without any handle torque" . . . so is this how you get your jollies by "amusing" youreslf?

                Originally posted by JJA
                The point of this, and why I like Booth's various demonstrations over the years (and Joof's before that), is they demonstrate very conclusively that you can get a decent representation of the swing without any fictitious "handle torque" being applied, and for only $5 of materials. And yes, in all the swings you posted, and any swing of any MLBer, what you're seeing in the motion of the bat is momentum transfer. Call it the kinetic chain, but that's what you're seeing. Extremely difficult concept for any non-physicist to understand (and even hard for some physicists).
                -JJA
                Now that was really your coup de grace when you point to Jim's PVC bat demo and mention Jofus' "plastic unhinging thingy" as some sort of proof of the MLB kinetic chain. I could put the bat in my arm pit, swing with my torso hitting a ball off of a tee, and by definition, I would have a "momentum transfer" through a "kinetic chain" . . . but that sure as hell is not how a MLB hitter goes about his business.

                Really not that difficult of a concept . . . even for a physicist I would have thought.
                In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
                  Here's Joe Mauer holding a constant forearm/bat angle for quite a long time.



                  P.S. The pitch was a curveball preceded by a fastball, and you can actually see him adjust and delay the start of his swing for a couple of frames after his front heel plants.
                  Hmmm, is the swing putting the front foot down? NO, maybe that's hip slide.....
                  Last edited by 1chapterahead; 11-04-2009, 06:12 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                    Is there a reason that only the bat is distorted and not other things like the stripe on his pants?
                    Because the stripe isn't moving fast.

                    The degree of distortion will be larger the faster the object is moving.

                    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                      . . . so if it's only "momentum transfer due to the rotation of the body" . . . what force/energy causes Uggla's (Frame #50) and DeRosa's (Frame 64/65) bats to "bend" or Rose's bat to blur while they are still almost perpendicular to the batter's box and not much further in the swing as Jim's PVC box swing?
                      A video artifact.

                      The fact that the bat bends more at the top and bottom of the frame is an interaction between the bat and the shutter of the camera. While I wish it did, the truth is that it doesn't say anything about how fast the bat is moving at different points in time during the swing.
                      Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                      I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                        But it appears to answer the deceleration portion later in the swing also.

                        What I'm saying is the bend, the increase in bend, and the inversion in bend ... all add up ... are you certain it is coincidence?
                        Yes.

                        Also, and I got this wrong in the past, what you are seeing in the frames right before the POC is an artifact that is due to rapid movement, not deceleration. Paradoxically, if the bat was decelerating through the POC, then the bat would be straight, not curved.
                        Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                        I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          This is a great thread. More, more.

                          BTW, I would like to see the PVC "bat" swung with the typical elbow slam to the hip and see if that changes anything.
                          efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by cartersball View Post
                            This is quite a shock to me. For I still clearly remember the days when JJA, Jofus, 4for4, Ohfor, and many others said Jim was completely off base on his analysis of the swing and with what he teaches. As far as I know Jim hasn't changed his views on what he teaches over the last few years. Interesting that all these other views have.

                            Ummm....I've never said Jim was off base on his analysis or what he teaches. Actually, when I first started trolling this and other hitting sites, Jim was one of the ones that I felt had a pretty good grasp of things, and I even looked to see if he had a website or anything.

                            That's not to say that I agree with "everything" that he says, but you could say that about anyone.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                              Note how close the shaft of the bat (the part between the hands and the sweet spot) stays to the back shoulder. This is accomplished by delaying release of the barrel. If they were torqing with the hands, the shaft would come away from the shoulder much earlier.

                              In frame 54 of Uggla and 67 of DeRosa you see the bat fly out. IMO, this is when hand force comes into play.
                              I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.

                              The question then becomes how much hand, wrist, or forearm force is involved in the whip.

                              Is it 0, 20, 50, or 80 percent or some other number?

                              I will say that my concern is that if you try to muscle up during the whip, you could very easily slow it down, so I would argue for less rather than more (at least when it comes to properly timed swings)[1]. That is something you see in pitchers. When they actively try to flex their wrist through the release point they actually throw the ball slower than when they just let it unhinge on its own.

                              I'd be interested in what people think and why.

                              [1] I do think the amount of hand force will vary according the the location of the pitch. For example, I could see the hands decelerating (or at least not acclerating) the head of the bat on a pitch where the batter was fooled.
                              Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009, 06:24 AM.
                              Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                              I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                cartersball,

                                Baloney. Booth will be the first to tell you that I have complemented him on his demos for years. He understands the physics pretty well and his demos have shown that knowledge in a simple, easy to understand way that can make it easier for non-physicists (i.e., most coaches and players on this board) to undertstand.

                                Once again, you comments are nothing but a predictable, pathetic attempt to create controversy when there is none.

                                -JJA
                                The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X