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Bad sportsmanship

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  • #31
    Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
    You're exactly right: I don't see it as having any value and don't think it teaches anything.
    You completly missed my point...
    "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
    - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
      You completly missed my point...
      I don't think I did.

      Comment


      • #33
        I tend to agree that the ritual handshake itself doesn't say or establish anything. However, in our baseball culture, ignoring it DOES say something, and it says it loudly. Note the ruckus that occurs any time a college football coach blows off the midfield handshake with the opposing coach.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
          No. I grew up in an area where I had friends who liked playing ball and didn't get carried away with showing each other up. The worst behavior I saw on a field was when I played organized ball. There was very little anarchy in our sandlot games. Sandlot was much better than little league was.
          But what did you do when you finished your sandlot games? Did you make the last out and then just walk blankly back to your bat and bucket of balls and leave? Or did you get the last out, sit in the shade with your friends, some of whom were probably on the other team, talk about the monster hit Jimmy had or the heat that Billy was throwing that day? Maybe head down to the local liquor store to get a soda and some gum?

          I don't know if you agree - but to me, this is the equivalent of shaking hands with and saying "Good Game" with the other team which is usually a bunch of strangers. It is a small gesture stating that it was nice to play a game, thanks for coming out to our field or thanks for sharing your field with us.


          I bring up shaking hands with my players during the first week of practice. I explain that we shake their hands out of respect for them and allowing us to play on their field or for coming out to our field to play. Without them we would not have a team to play. Additionally, we shake their hands as a mutual respect for competitiveness. Just like when Boxers beat the crap out of each other, at the end of the fight they shake hands (or hug it out) to show respect for a well fought match. And lastly, we thank the Umpires for their time and commitment to us. For us (Little League) the Umps are volunteers and not paid. They come out because they love the game and want to give back to the community. We thank them for their time and try to treat them with respect so that they continue to want to volunteer.


          I think the value you get out of shaking hands (or anything) is what you make of it.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
            I don't think I did.
            Jake's point is that if the coach models good sportsmanship by shaking hands with the opponents in a spirit of genuine respect, then the kids will learn something positive from that. If the coach does it in a rote fashion without sincerity or good will, then the kids will learn that shaking hands is a pointless meaningless gesture.

            Tell me this: if you're seated and a friend approaches with someone you haven't met before, and says "Ed, I'd like you to meet John Smith," what do you do? By convention, you rise to your feet, look John Smith in the eye, extend your hand, and say something like "pleased to meet you John." Is it meaningless? It's a culturally accepted ritual that indicates your respect for another person, and your consideration. If you're a polite person, you do it with some genuine warmth and good cheer, even though you know nothing about this stranger.

            Customs like this are what make civil society possible. Unfortunately they seem to be on the wane, and not just on the ballfield...

            As coaches and parents we have a responsibility to show our kids the right way to interact with others, including our "adversaries" in the sporting world.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Megunticook View Post
              Jake's point is that if the coach models good sportsmanship by shaking hands with the opponents in a spirit of genuine respect, then the kids will learn something positive from that. If the coach does it in a rote fashion without sincerity or good will, then the kids will learn that shaking hands is a pointless meaningless gesture.

              Tell me this: if you're seated and a friend approaches with someone you haven't met before, and says "Ed, I'd like you to meet John Smith," what do you do? By convention, you rise to your feet, look John Smith in the eye, extend your hand, and say something like "pleased to meet you John." Is it meaningless? It's a culturally accepted ritual that indicates your respect for another person, and your consideration. If you're a polite person, you do it with some genuine warmth and good cheer, even though you know nothing about this stranger.

              Customs like this are what make civil society possible. Unfortunately they seem to be on the wane, and not just on the ballfield...

              As coaches and parents we have a responsibility to show our kids the right way to interact with others, including our "adversaries" in the sporting world.
              I know exactly what his point is and I don't agree with it. As a kid we learned to interact and compromise without much adult involvement. I think those lessons were better learned without getting adults invilved. As you say those customs seems to be on the wane after about 30 years of adult over involvement in kids activities.

              I think your right parents modeling behavior for kids, but not so much about coaches doing the same.

              I also don't think your example of meeting a stranger fits in this discussion. Meeting someone one on one is not the same as a line of people exchanging perfunctory greetings.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
                But what did you do when you finished your sandlot games? .
                We generally said 'good bye' and went home. We didn't have adults hovering over us so we could act pretty natural.

                Comment


                • #38
                  OK, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. My example of the introduction was just meant to illustrate that everyday we perform all kinds of social rituals, and just because they're rituals doesn't mean they're all "meaningless" or "rote." It's the spirit behind the gesture that means something.

                  Coaches absolutely model behavior for kids...whether they want to or not, they're doing it everytime they interact with their team. Same with teachers, pastors, etc. Anyone who spends time with kids in a leadership role is modeling.

                  I'm scratching my head over the idea that adult involvement has just been in the past 30 years. Yes, kids need to learn how to interact when alone with other kids. And there's probably a lot more "supervised" play now than there used to be. But if you coach a team, you are a role model, like it or not, and that carries extra responsibility to keep your behavior at a high standard.

                  I do agree that parents do "hover" more than they used to, and a lot of kids are less independent. I do miss the casual pickup games I used to play with other kids, without adults around, and I think that has great value.
                  Last edited by Megunticook; 04-02-2012, 02:11 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
                    I know exactly what his point is and I don't agree with it. As a kid we learned to interact and compromise without much adult involvement. I think those lessons were better learned without getting adults invilved. As you say those customs seems to be on the wane after about 30 years of adult over involvement in kids activities.

                    I think your right parents modeling behavior for kids, but not so much about coaches doing the same.

                    I also don't think your example of meeting a stranger fits in this discussion. Meeting someone one on one is not the same as a line of people exchanging perfunctory greetings.
                    Ed,
                    You did not get my point...
                    My point was there are probably 100 people involved in what it is you do and what it is you teach. You, or any other teacher for that matter, have no idea what effect you have on those around you or how they percieve you and your teachings - so why not put a good foot forward. I always went out of my way to be friendly, respectful, and curtious to everyone I met on the field. The game - if you're coaching - is about the kids. In 25 years I have met coaches who feel they way you do with some refusing to allow their players to shake hands. By the time they get to high school... this usually doesn't work out. There is nothing wrong with going out of your way to be friendly, polite, etc...

                    Last, a topic like this isn't about how you feel as much as it is - what are you teaching the children. Not shaking hands on any field the players and coaches are ALWAYS viewed badly, those shaking hands are not.
                    "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                    - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      We played in a 13U tourney but were on the other end of the decision. I know that most people are about the W but I really think our kids won that day. We were winning 4-1 when the game was called for our mistake. And it was a mistake. I was super proud of my son as he was the first kid to get our 2nd place trophy and he immediatley went over to shake each one of the "winners" hands. Most of the kids would not look my son in the eye and a few said hey you won. But hey the kids got their 1st place trophy. YEAH! here is a excert from our head coach:

                      I was very sorry to hear how it all went down yesterday. Honestly, at the end of the day, the rule at every other age level and other sanctions (nations) is 27 outs in a weekend. For some reason in usssa when you move to 13s it is 24 outs for the weekend. With the last out Zack pitched, it took him to 25. Not having played any USSSA at 13's ever before, it was an honest mistake on our part and as head coach I take full responsibility. That being said, I will also be discussing this further w the tournament director since Austin actually asked the umpires before he put Zack back out there. The rule was 24 outs, but the umpires and tourney director should have known that and been able to tell our coaches, especially since they asked about that specifically. As far as the way the other team handled it, it is not the way I would have chosen to, because in my opinion the psyche and development of the kids is more important than the engraving on a trophy. I don't think the way it was handled was the right way for the kids on either team. From everything i heard, it sounds like our parents and players handled it with extreme dignity, which I am very proud of.


                      At the end of the day, the most disappointing thing is that our boys were not properly rewarded for what they accomplished on the field. I am sure there are all kinds of lessons from this for all of us. Not sure what all of those are at this point, but I do know that the trophy is just a trophy and what the boys did on the field is what matters most. Though the trophy doesn't say it, we all know that our boys won that tournament. I also know that this situation will help fuel these boys on to future success.


                      I will be contacting the tourney director to discuss further. That being said, the ruling probably will not change. My hope is that we don't dwell on it, but use it as a stepping stone for our boys and move forward quickly knowing that we have most of our tourneys in front of us. One of the things I preach consistently is that adversity isn't what makes you who you are, it's how you respond to it. I think we will look back on this weekend as a big turning point for our boys, knowing this is what fueled them on to an amazing season. Looking forward to the days ahead with a great group of young men and parents. Thanks for your understanding and commitment. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post

                        Last, a topic like this isn't about how you feel as much as it is - what are you teaching the children. Not shaking hands on any field the players and coaches are ALWAYS viewed badly, those shaking hands are not.
                        I know that they are, but my point is that they shouldn't be. If kids want to shake hands fine, but making them do it doesn't teach them anything in my opinion. I don't think handshaking has anything to do with sportsmanship or respect. If I were a kid today there is no way I would want to shake hands with another team if they were acting like jerks during the game. If I were a coach I wouldn't make them do it.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Megunticook View Post

                          I'm scratching my head over the idea that adult involvement has just been in the past 30 years. Yes, kids need to learn how to interact when alone with other kids. And there's probably a lot more "supervised" play now than there used to be. But if you coach a team, you are a role model, like it or not, and that carries extra responsibility to keep your behavior at a high standard.

                          I do agree that parents do "hover" more than they used to, and a lot of kids are less independent. I do miss the casual pickup games I used to play with other kids, without adults around, and I think that has great value.
                          When I grew up in the 70s there was little parental involvement when kids were playing outside. When I played on teams parents rarely came to games or involved themselves in their kids activities (outside of school). The helicopter parents didn't really start coming along until the early 80s in my experience. I think the Baby Boomers were the parents who really started over-doing it with involvement in their kids activities.

                          My parents and most of my friends parents hated kids activities that had a lot of parental involvement (things like Cub Scouts).
                          Last edited by EdTarbusz; 04-02-2012, 02:47 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                            . I always went out of my way to be friendly, respectful, and curtious to everyone I met on the field. The game - if you're coaching - is about the kids. In 25 years I have met coaches who feel they way you do with some refusing to allow their players to shake hands. By the time they get to high school... this usually doesn't work out. There is nothing wrong with going out of your way to be friendly, polite, etc...

                            .
                            We'll have to disagree here. I don't think a mandatory handshake has anything to do with being friendly or respectful. I think it's a menaingless exercise.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tradosaurus View Post
                              When I coached 10U league team I would have our pitcher call time and go shake hands with the batter he just "plunked" to show that it was not intentional.

                              I wish the teams in MLB would line up to shake hands after each game.

                              The coach of the opposing team showed his players that if things don't go your way or you feel slighted then to go off and pout. Baseball is more than about winning or losing but how to deal with failure.
                              I don't know why, but this makes me cringe when I see it. It's unnecessary and should be handled by just not reacting as to show up the batter or the batter making anything more out of it than what it is.

                              My son's hit batters and unless he really blows a kid up, treats it as just another part of the game. As a batter, he does everything he can to simply lay the bat down and take his base without any reaction at all. Kids have done the come over and shake his hand thing and he gets this face like - Are you serious? I'm good - thanks.

                              Anytime a coach draws attention to himself, other than in the process of positively dealing with his kids, the kids on the other side, the parents, opposing coaches, umpires, etc., they make themselves look like tools. Is it ok to be frustrated? To blow it? Sure. We're all human. Is it ever ok to make a conscious choice to not take the high road? No!
                              There are two kinds of losers.....Those that don't do what they are told, and those that do only what they are told.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                While I don't object to the post-game handshake, as I think it's one of many parts of the youth sports culture that is neither harmful nor awe-inspiring, I do get annoyed with the insincere "good game" that usually accompanies the handshake. Maybe if it really was a good game, but too often I find that mantra being droned through the handshake line after a 12-0 drubbing, and it bugs me. I generally just give a smile and say something nebulous like "Thanks" or "Good luck", if I say anything at all.

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