2 pitchers combine for 347 pitches !!

[songtitle]

................ double post. Not sure if my Internet is wacky or the website is slow. (Jake it looks like I am editing as you are responding)

[Jake Patterson]

Marshall's 'study' is a joke and is easily refuted.

Easily solved...Please post a credible rebutal to his injury findings...

I am suggesting that they are the best surgeons around and they know how to repair injuries. You do see the difference, right?

No I don't... I simply asked,

are you suggesting that the orthopedists who perform 100's of surgeries a year have no idea about what causes the injuries they repair???

[real green]

Anyone with any logic skills can quickly see that, of course, these are the ones getting hurt since they are the ones actually used in games. That's like saying that you are more likely to crash the more you drive. So, the answer is to govern the amount of times you can drive your car per month?

Fatigue, from what i understand is the problem, right? Just like driving =-). Druck driver's are only allowed to drive x amount of hours over y period of time, because studies have shown the increase of accidents increases significantly the more hours spent on the road do to fatigue.

While I agree we need to know more, it's pretty well accepted the more you pitch the higher the chance of injury. The numbers are basically based on fatigue and recovery time, right? I think all athletes know the more fatigued we are the higher chance of injury in just about any sport. Anyone that has pitched knows that throwing 100 plus pitches is a BIG work load on your arm and body. Hence you are very fatigued and risking yourself to a higher chance of injury.

[songtitle]

Easily solved...Please post a credible rebutal to his injury findings...

As I edited above, his 'findings' have nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. There was no mention of pitch counts per player. Marshall recommended that nobody ever pitch before they are 13 I think. Is this credible to you? So, his pitch limit is zero.

Marshall is a quack. He's well meaning, but come on, he's a quack.

[Roothog66]

Easily solved...Please post a credible rebutal to his injury findings...

No I don't... I simply asked,

are you suggesting that the orthopedists who perform 100's of surgeries a year have no idea about what causes the injuries they repair???

To be fair, there were certain doctors with ASMI who would have sworn years ago that the curveball was a major factor of the injuries they were treating. More recently, they've backed off of that stance. Also to be fair, those whose job it is to repair injuries are going to be the same ones to put the tightest limits in their recommendations. Repetitive motions, especially those as violent as throwing a baseball are risky regardless of how often it is done. So, there are two questions. One, how much is too much? (50 pitches? 100? 250?). Two, Is there something that can be done to minimize the injury. (different mechanics - Marshall? strengthening of the supporting muscular structure - Ryan?) Bottom line - no doctor is going to say about any risky activity, "go do it as much as you like." Further, no surgeon, even if he personally believes that 150 pitches a week is harmless, is going out on that limb publicly. He knows his words carry weight and that the person who takes his advise might have various factors he knows nothing about. There was another post with interesting observations concerning the high injury rate among closers, despite the fact that they pitch the fewest innings in the game. Surely, that says something concerning looking strictly at pitch counts as an indicator of risk.

[Roothog66]

Fatigue, from what i understand is the problem, right? Just like driving =-). Druck driver's are only allowed to drive x amount of hours over y period of time, because studies have shown the increase of accidents increases significantly the more hours spent on the road do to fatigue.

While I agree we need to know more, it's pretty well accepted the more you pitch the higher the chance of injury. The numbers are basically based on fatigue and recovery time, right? I think all athletes know the more fatigued we are the higher chance of injury in just about any sport. Anyone that has pitched knows that throwing 100 plus pitches is a BIG work load on your arm and body. Hence you are very fatigued and risking yourself to a higher chance of injury.

The problem is trying to quantify fatigue with something as simple and basic as pitch counts. Player A, due to makeup, mechanics, physical conditioning, or genetics might be fatigued at 40 pitches. In that case a pitch count limit of 60 pitches is detremental to him if a coach just throws him in there and says, "OK. He's just fine since he only threw 50 pitches." Player B may be a Ryan type that can go 150 pitches with no noticeable effects. For him, a 60 pitch limit is unnecessary. Second, is he throwing 90mph fastballs that put severe stress on his joints, or is he a junkball pitcher whose mechanics are no more harmful than the warmup throws between infielders before a game? Finally, to use the weightlifting analogy once again, will you become more fatigued quicker (and thus exposing yourself to injury) by lifting 200 lbs. in 6 reps of 5 with rest in between, or 2 reps of 15? In other words, has the pitcher who throws 12 pitches an inning for seven innings (84 total) done as much damage as the kid who throws 30 pitches in the first and 25 in the second (55 total)? I don't think so. Do we totally discount the 5-12 minutes rest between innings? Short term recovery is also important. Now, I guess pitch counts are the best we have to go with and, therefore, better than no protection. But, it certainly has limitations.

[cps]

The problem is trying to quantify fatigue with something as simple and basic as pitch counts. Player A, due to makeup, mechanics, physical conditioning, or genetics might be fatigued at 40 pitches. In that case a pitch count limit of 60 pitches is detremental to him if a coach just throws him in there and says, "OK. He's just fine since he only threw 50 pitches." Player B may be a Ryan type that can go 150 pitches with no noticeable effects. For him, a 60 pitch limit is unnecessary. Second, is he throwing 90mph fastballs that put severe stress on his joints, or is he a junkball pitcher whose mechanics are no more harmful than the warmup throws between infielders before a game? Finally, to use the weightlifting analogy once again, will you become more fatigued quicker (and thus exposing yourself to injury) by lifting 200 lbs. in 6 reps of 5 with rest in between, or 2 reps of 15? In other words, has the pitcher who throws 12 pitches an inning for seven innings (84 total) done as much damage as the kid who throws 30 pitches in the first and 25 in the second (55 total)? I don't think so. Do we totally discount the 5-12 minutes rest between innings? Short term recovery is also important. Now, I guess pitch counts are the best we have to go with and, therefore, better than no protection. But, it certainly has limitations.

The problem is, how to you really know a child is the "Nolan Ryan type" and can pitch 150 pitches (or 100 for a child) ? The damage may not be obvious until several years later.

[Jake Patterson]

To be fair, there were certain doctors with ASMI who would have sworn years ago that the curveball was a major factor of the injuries they were treating.

Who??

More recently, they've backed off of that stance. Also to be fair, those whose job it is to repair injuries are going to be the same ones to put the tightest limits in their recommendations. Repetitive motions, especially those as violent as throwing a baseball are risky regardless of how often it is done. So, there are two questions. One, how much is too much? (50 pitches? 100? 250?). Two, Is there something that can be done to minimize the injury. (different mechanics - Marshall? strengthening of the supporting muscular structure - Ryan?) Bottom line - no doctor is going to say about any risky activity, "go do it as much as you like." Further, no surgeon, even if he personally believes that 150 pitches a week is harmless, is going out on that limb publicly. He knows his words carry weight and that the person who takes his advise might have various factors he knows nothing about. There was another post with interesting observations concerning the high injury rate among closers, despite the fact that they pitch the fewest innings in the game. Surely, that says something concerning looking strictly at pitch counts as an indicator of risk.

So you support my position that we DO know a bunch about pitching and the injuries it produces.

[Jake Patterson]

[QUOTE=songtitle;2001963]

Easily solved...Please post a credible rebutal to his injury findings...

As I edited above, his 'findings' have nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. There was no mention of pitch counts per player. Marshall recommended that nobody ever pitch before they are 13 I think. Is this credible to you? So, his pitch limit is zero.

Marshall is a quack. He's well meaning, but come on, he's a quack.

So... as I stated above...

Easily solved...Please post a credible rebutal to his injury findings...

[scorekeeper]

To be fair, there were certain doctors with ASMI who would have sworn years ago that the curveball was a major factor of the injuries they were treating. More recently, they've backed off of that stance. …

Actually, there’s really been no change, other than to recognize that a curve thrown “properly” is no more harmful than any other pitch. But there’s been no one I’ve ever heard of that says an improperly thrown curve isn’t an extreme hazard to pitchers.

[CircleChange11]

Actually, there’s really been no change, other than to recognize that a curve thrown “properly” is no more harmful than any other pitch. But there’s been no one I’ve ever heard of that says an improperly thrown curve isn’t an extreme hazard to pitchers.

That's the exact misperception that the researchers were afraid of. That readers would read "a properly thrown curveball is no more hazardous to a pitching arm than a fastball" and think "There's no danger in having these kids throw curveballs." ... regardless of how the coaches are teaching them. People realize that some coaches actually teach a "twisting" curveball, right? Not everyone out there is "pulling down the lampshade" in their instruction.

I admit I am in a more isolated area so I do not expect my experience to come even close to representing the norm. I have had the privilage to play for an outstanding HS program and 2 really good college programs. It's been culture shock to see how things are where I live currently. It's like the "Planet of the Apes" where the modern information and best practices are reserved for the Forbidden Zone.

[Roothog66]

Who??
So you support my position that we DO know a bunch about pitching and the injuries it produces.

Yes, for example, we know that the curve is not a source of injuries separate from fastballs. And, of course we know that repetition is harmful. I could have saved everyone a lot of money on that one. We know that tjose who throw 100 pitches per week are more exposed to injury than those who throw 150 and those who throw 200, even more. Again, researcheers could have saved their money for pointing out the obvious.
Who? Dr. Andrews, for one. Jake, you and I have read the same studies. In fact, they've been posted her many times. The latest study from ASMI found no support for the argument that the curveball causes more stress and injury than the fastball. They, in fact, seemed surprised since they admit the purpose of the study was to prove their contention that it did (which, by the way, isn't the proper way to go about a scientific study). Here is the link from the NY times which can point you to two studies:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/sports/baseball/26score.html?_r=1

Admittedly, they also have studies to show that those kids throwing more than 100 innings/year ar 3.5 times more injury prone.

[tg643]

One pitcher threw 154 pitches. The other threw 193. I can see throwing 154 in the right weather, with the right rest, ONCE to win a high school playoff game. But not a regular season game. There is never a reason to throw a pitcher 193 pitches.

One thing that has changed over the years is kids aren't outside all the time throwing something. Kids don't throw enough and pitch too much. I can picture some lunatic dads telling a kid not to throw snowballs because they aren't the right weight and the kid isn't warmed up. As a kid we threw everything. We even filled Dixie cups with newspaper and pitched them in the yard at max velocity.

[Roothog66]

Glen Fleisig is another

The study was unable to demonstrate that the long-held belief that throwing curveballs before age 13 increased the risk of injury. But the lead researcher had a theory why that may have appeared to be the case.
"The kids who were throwing the curveballs were better, the kids who were playing more," Fleisig said. "The factors were mixed together. Sure enough, the kids who were throwing curveballs may have been the ones who were getting hurt more. But they're the ones that are pitching more. They're the ones that are throwing harder.

"Maybe it's not the fact that they're throwing curveballs, it's the fact that they're the kids who overdo it," he said.

[CircleChange11]

I have to ask (and this isn't with sarcasm), but if you were able to and found that none had arm problems, would you draw any conclusions from it?

June 14, 1974 - Red Sox v. Angels
Nolan Ryan - 235 pitches
Luis Tiant - 189 pitches

Quote: "It obviously ruined his arm because he had to retire 19 years later," said Bill James, a renowned chronicler of baseball facts and figures.

Now, I know these were full grown adults and this is a different era, but do you think that there are genetic and mechanics factors which allow some pitchers to throwan enormous number of pitches with no apparent effects while others break down and have injuries? Again, not talking about kida under 18. Nolan always credited his hard work at keeping himself in shape.

This brings up one of the most interesting pitching seasons. Nolan Ryan, 1974.

332.2 IP
221 H
202 BB
367 K
1392 BF

That followed his 1973 Season:

326.0 IP
238 H
162 BB
383 K
1355 BF

For fun, try and calculate how many pitches in a season, then pitches per start. Compare to the workload managed by Justin Verlander last year.

Noaln had 6 seasons where he walked 150+, K'd 250+, and threw over 250+ innings. For 6 seasons in the 70s, he led the league in walks and K's.

Using Ryan as a barometer for pitch counts and expected stamina is unfair to everyone else. Freak + Mechanics + Work Ethic = Unreal, in the literal sense.