Runner on 3rd/1 out/infield in

[omg]

What is the thought process in this situation for hs ball? Include infield back and infield halfway as well. Include ball hit to the pitcher. Should the runner at 3rd generally go home on a ball hit on the ground with 1 out? Assume average situation, ie, average runner, average fielders, average pitcher, average hitter on deck. From an offensive, not defensive standpoint.

[Jake Patterson]

What is the thought process in this situation for hs ball? Include infield back and infield halfway as well. Include ball hit to the pitcher. Should the runner at 3rd generally go home on a ball hit on the ground with 1 out? Assume average situation, ie, average runner, average fielders, average pitcher, average hitter on deck.

The are several thoughts on this situation
Defense - I would have the middle infield in so they can hold the runner.

Runner - Should go far enough to freeze the fielder. I would not send until after the throw was committed to first.

We practiced this for both the offence and defence.

[shake-n-bake]

Defensive alignment will vary based on game situation, i.e. the ability to lose the battle, but still win the war by accepting that there's a greater possibility of conceding the run that's on 3B.

Sending the runner on contact varies more based on the defensive alignment, but may be tied to game situation. Throw in another runner at 1B and it also effects the thought process. With the infield back or just the corners in and the middle at double play depth, most managers will be more comfortable sending the runner on contact and taking their chances that it won't be a come-backer to the pitcher or line drive right at someone.

[Jake Patterson]

Defensive alignment will vary based on game situation, i.e. the ability to lose the battle, but still win the war by accepting that there's a greater possibility of conceding the run that's on 3B.

Sending the runner on contact varies more based on the defensive alignment, but may be tied to game situation. Throw in another runner at 1B and it also effects the thought process. With the infield back or just the corners in and the middle at double play depth, most managers will be more comfortable sending the runner on contact and taking their chances that it won't be a come-backer to the pitcher or line drive right at someone.

If you go on contact and the infield is protecting against the run scoring... and a GB is fielded properly... GB to 1st and 3rd will be an out 90% of the time... if it's hit to SS or 2B and they commit commit to 1B a well trained runner will make it home 90% of the time, especially at the HS level. If any of the IF's hold the ball for any length of time you have a runner on 1 and 3. JMHO

I agree with Shake there are a number of other variables that would feed into the equation...

[tg643]

What is the thought process in this situation for hs ball? Include infield back and infield halfway as well. Include ball hit to the pitcher. Should the runner at 3rd generally go home on a ball hit on the ground with 1 out? Assume average situation, ie, average runner, average fielders, average pitcher, average hitter on deck. From an offensive, not defensive standpoint.

It depends on the talent on the team, the hitter at the plate, the arms in the infield, what innings, how the pitcher is handling hitters and the game situation. There isn't a set answer for your situation.

[omg]

It depends on the talent on the team, the hitter at the plate, the arms in the infield, what innings, how the pitcher is handling hitters and the game situation. There isn't a set answer for your situation.

With the infield in, when would you go on contact?

[tg643]

With the infield in, when would you go on contact?

You wouldn't unless it's kiddie ball and you believe the runner can force a bad throw. At the high school level the runner should be dead meat unless it's a really slow roller. On a slow roller it has to be the base runners judgement call. And he better be right.

We had a play in high school with first and third where the runner on third broke on contact unless it was a shot back at the pitcher. The idea was to draw a surprise, panic throw. If not, get in a run down until the other runners are on second and third. If the fielder bit on the throw home it killed the double play opportunity.

[mudvnine]

We had a play in high school with first and third where the runner on third broke on contact unless it was a shot back at the pitcher. The idea was to draw a surprise, panic throw. If not, get in a run down until the other runners are on second and third. If the fielder bit on the throw home it killed the double play opportunity.

Sorry "tg", I'm confused on what's happening here....

I'm assuming (or reading it as) you're on offense with runners on 1st & 3rd, but I'm not sure if you're saying the defense is playing all fielders "in", or what would be the usual fielder positioning....."corners in, middle two (double play position for those not sure)".

With all fielders "in", I'm confused at the "panic throw", as the movement of the 3B runner is the first "read" by any of the fielders, so none should be "surprised or panicking their throw if a ball's hit to them. If they are positioned as "corners in, middle two", same things holds with the corner fielders, and the the middle infielders are turning a DP, and wouldn't/shouldn't care if the runner at 3B is breaking for home on contact or not.

Seems to me that you have a greater chance of losing a runner at third with the out at the plate, or possibly two outs, if the rundown is executed correctly with only two throws, and a runner trying to get all the way to third from first.

What am I missing or not understanding?

[mudvnine]

Third base runner is off and running immediately when, with the......

Infield "in" - The ball is through to the OF. Possible read is a ball through the mound area past the pitcher, basically "up the middle", regardless if it makes it to the OF or not. Some folks will run whenever an infielder dives when the infield is "in", but I've never been too successful with that, and have thus stuck with the ball has to make it through or be up the middle.

Infield "back" - The thought is "middle by".......the ball has to be to/towards a middle infielder and by (past) the pitcher. Ball hit to either corner fielder and runner does not run.

Infield "half way" - The thought/read is "down angle"......any ball immediately off the bat at a "down angle", and not to the pitcher.

[skipper5]

With the infield in, when would you go on contact?

tg:You wouldn't unless it's kiddie ball and you believe the runner can force a bad throw.

Respectfully disagree. For me (but not most coaches) it's runners at 2nd and 3rd, zero outs and 1 out. Go on downward contact. Even on a comebacker to the pitcher. Regardless of defensive alignment. Runner is instructed to get in a pickle if he's a dead duck, which allows R2 (and sometimes even batter/baserunner) to move up.

With zero outs, we hold the runner closer to the bag, to minimize the L-5 double play. But he still goes on downward contact. Etc., etc., Regardless of defensive alignment.

[skipper5]

mud,
Not to blow smoke, but you are an excellent communicator.
I challenge myself to match your clarity.

[tg643]

tg:You wouldn't unless it's kiddie ball and you believe the runner can force a bad throw.

Respectfully disagree. For me (but not most coaches) it's runners at 2nd and 3rd, zero outs and 1 out. Go on downward contact. Even on a comebacker to the pitcher. Regardless of defensive alignment. Runner is instructed to get in a pickle if he's a dead duck, which allows R2 (and sometimes even batter/baserunner) to move up.

With zero outs, we hold the runner closer to the bag, to minimize the L-5 double play. But he still goes on downward contact. Etc., etc., Regardless of defensive alignment.

As noted in one of my other posts my high school coach liked this play. As a travel coach I wasn't a fan of it.

[omg]

tg:You wouldn't unless it's kiddie ball and you believe the runner can force a bad throw.

Respectfully disagree. For me (but not most coaches) it's runners at 2nd and 3rd, zero outs and 1 out. Go on downward contact. Even on a comebacker to the pitcher. Regardless of defensive alignment. Runner is instructed to get in a pickle if he's a dead duck, which allows R2 (and sometimes even batter/baserunner) to move up.

With zero outs, we hold the runner closer to the bag, to minimize the L-5 double play. But he still goes on downward contact. Etc., etc., Regardless of defensive alignment.

Yes, well this is why I posed the question as I have always done it like Skip does it (generally) but I wanted to hear some other possibilities as I have some doubts about doing it my way and Skip's way. Regardless, it is a very important topic and could mean the difference between a good season and a great one, etc.

The big question is 1 out, infield in. What should the runner on 3rd (in advance) be instructed to do? Just a runner on 3rd, not 2nd and 3rd and not 1st and third, because in those situations I'm definitely sending the runner on the downward angle.

[mudvnine]

Yes, well this is why I posed the question as I have always done it like Skip does it (generally) but I wanted to hear some other possibilities as I have some doubts about doing it my way and Skip's way. Regardless, it is a very important topic and could mean the difference between a good season and a great one, etc.

"omg", I don't think there is one definitive answer for a runner on 3rd situation.

Much depends on the inning, the score, the speed of the runner, the ability of the hitter, the hitter on deck, how your team is handling the pitcher (and vis versa).....just too many variables to say that one strategy covers all.

The big question is 1 out, infield in. What should the runner on 3rd (in advance) be instructed to do? Just a runner on 3rd, not 2nd and 3rd and not 1st and third, because in those situations I'm definitely sending the runner on the downward angle.

Well, if it's late in the game and you're up by four, than he runs only, if and when the ball on the ground gets into the OF.

If it's late in the game, and you're down by a run, they're not holding him, and the pitcher is in a windup.....you make sure that he's getting a good secondary, and he is then running on any "down angle".

With the same parameters, and depending on the hitter and the count, you may consider a "safety squeeze"......this "down angle" ball doesn't get to the infielders as quickly, they have to field it on the run, make a more difficult transition or field it bare-handed, and make a good throw on time to the catcher, who has to catch it, and make the tag. With all those variable that they have to execute with 100% accuracy, and the "surprise" that comes many times by that play, I like our odds.


Just another option,
mud -

[omg]

Thanks. Let's talk about the runner just on 3rd, pitcher going from stretch, close game, infield in. Average to fast runner on 3rd. Average pitcher, average on deck hitter. What makes you have this runner go or stay on a grounder?

As you say, I like the bunts and safety squeezes although with the infield in you've got the defense at a disadvantage for a batted ball.

Not sure why you say when up by 4 you would not have the runner go on 3rd. Going in that situation is less of a risk.