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  • Should I be Worried?

    I take photos of my Son's Tournament Team Game. I got shot this Photo and up came the infamous 'Inverted W". is this cause for concern? Should I tell the parents? He complained of elbow problems during winter workouts, but has been pain free ever since.

    rsz_seahawks-23.jpg
    Many Theories – One Outcome

  • #2
    Tell the parents to get in this position and have them get their arms up and twist their arm in the manner you see above and see if it stresses their elbow.
    "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
    - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
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    • #3
      I will have a talk with the parents this week. I am guessing this is part of the reason he gets tired after the 4th inning. On the 60FT diamond it wasnt a problem but on the 90ft diamond he tires around the 3rd or 4th inning.
      Many Theories – One Outcome

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      • #4
        IMO, it's not the fact that the elbow is up, but that his forearm/hand is below the elbow at foot plant. This makes the forearm bounce phase very violent.
        efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AL_DAD View Post
          I take photos of my Son's Tournament Team Game. I got shot this Photo and up came the infamous 'Inverted W". is this cause for concern? Should I tell the parents? He complained of elbow problems during winter workouts, but has been pain free ever since.
          Yes and Yes, especially since he's already having pain.

          P.S. Technically, this is the Inverted V.
          Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

          I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

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          • #6
            1. That elbow is far higher than his shoulder. I agree with Jake, have the parents get in that positions and simply ask "feel good?"

            2. My 10yo son has the same stride length as this pitcher. I'm assuming that the pitcher is taller than 4'10. In other words, the stride length needs to increase as well.

            3. The front foot has essentially landed and we would like to see a mostly vertical forearm at that point with fingers on top of the ball.

            His glove and GS elbow are also very far from his body.

            My guess is up to this point this pitcher has been able to "outbig" (as I call it) everyone else?

            Honestly, I would stop him pitching ASAP and start working on the 3-4 major mechanical flaws. Not because his arm is going to fall off in the next 5 minutes (although injury could occur), but because the flaws he has are (IMO) easily correctable and in short order.

            Those are really, really, really cool hats. No joke. I would tell my players to start a fight with your team just so one of us could grab one of those. *grin*

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
              the stride length needs to increase as well.
              Be aware that if you change his stride length, his arm motion will likely change.

              You could add some distance, then see what his arm position is at foot plant. Note that 2 long steps equals his height.

              IOW, try to change one thing at a time. Try the stride, then see what happens. Then fix his arm motion to match his new stride.

              If you just want to fix his arm motion, without tinkering with the stride first, see if he takes his hand back, or down, out of the glove. I'm guessing he takes his elbow back, like you do when you are just throwing in the back yard. If so, you might try just having him throw his hand down toward the ground out of the glove.
              Last edited by songtitle; 04-30-2012, 06:59 AM.
              efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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              • #8
                Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                Be aware that if you change his stride length, his arm motion will likely change.

                You could add some distance, then see what his arm position is at foot plant. Note that 2 long steps equals his height.

                IOW, try to change one thing at a time. Try the stride, then see what happens. Then fix his arm motion to match his new stride.

                If you just want to fix his arm motion, without tinkering with the stride first, see if he takes his hand back, or down, out of the glove. I'm guessing he takes his elbow back, like you do when you are just throwing in the back yard. If so, you might try just having him throw his hand down toward the ground out of the glove.
                I am not saying this in a mean or insulting way, but if that's his stride length his arm motion will essentially need to mimic a catchers. In order for his arm to be in a "better" position at foot contact, he'll basically need to bring the ball near his ear and then throw.

                I wonder what arm action he uses on "throws from shortstop" or "throws from CF". I ask that because his arm action in the photo almost resembles what one would expect from a "submariner", only his torso is upright.

                The stride length will need to increase regardless of his arm action. You can pitch effectively with 75% height for stride length. But from the photo, he's going maybe 50% stride length. There's essentially no way to not have timing issues and create hip-shoulder separation.

                I'm saying this out of compassion for a pitcher who is likely pitching with a lot of effort, but fighting against himself in regards to mechanics. I'd want to help him ASAP.

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                • #9
                  circle, I agree with what you said.

                  BTW, my 'be aware' comments were poorly worded. I intended them for the OP, not you.
                  efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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                  • #10
                    I am going to reach out to the Father. He is a baseball guy and will take what I tell him to heart. I just dont want his son having arm troubles at such an early age. I will video tape his next start to see if this is from fatigue or something he does 100% of the time. Regardless his dad will be notified.
                    Last edited by AL_DAD; 04-30-2012, 08:23 AM.
                    Many Theories – One Outcome

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                      IMO, it's not the fact that the elbow is up, but that his forearm/hand is below the elbow at foot plant. This makes the forearm bounce phase very violent.
                      correct. all good pitchers have some forearm bounce but if it is too violent it can hurt a pitcher. that guy is really extreme as his arm is maximally internally rotated. that means he has to ER to arm a lot to get to the fully loaded position (maximum ER).

                      Teach him to swing the arm up with the thumb pointing up instead of down this will keep his hand above his elbow.
                      I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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                      • #12
                        I spoke to the Father yestaerday and he was very receptive. His biggest complaint was that his son goes to a Pitching coach all winter and the coach did not see the problem. I sent him a ton of the photos that I have of his son and he will go over it with him. His son was always a big dude and would over power kids in his age group but not anymore. I am going to try and video tape his next outing as well as my son's next outing to see if I can run a comparison.
                        Many Theories – One Outcome

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AL_DAD View Post
                          I spoke to the Father yestaerday and he was very receptive. His biggest complaint was that his son goes to a Pitching coach all winter and the coach did not see the problem. I sent him a ton of the photos that I have of his son and he will go over it with him. His son was always a big dude and would over power kids in his age group but not anymore. I am going to try and video tape his next outing as well as my son's next outing to see if I can run a comparison.
                          While the kid could have come up with this all on his own, it's also possible that a cue that the coach used could have created or worsened the problem.
                          Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                          I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AL_DAD View Post
                            I spoke to the Father yestaerday and he was very receptive. His biggest complaint was that his son goes to a Pitching coach all winter and the coach did not see the problem. I sent him a ton of the photos that I have of his son and he will go over it with him. His son was always a big dude and would over power kids in his age group but not anymore. I am going to try and video tape his next outing as well as my son's next outing to see if I can run a comparison.
                            Ask the father if his son's pitching "coach" has take photographs or video of his son's pitching.

                            If not then he needs to either find a new pitching coach or hire you. :cap:

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tradosaurus View Post
                              Ask the father if his son's pitching "coach" has take photographs or video of his son's pitching.

                              If not then he needs to either find a new pitching coach or hire you. :cap:
                              I know for a fact he does not use any photos/video because 80% of the time my Son is with his pitching coach (11 Years in the MLB) right next to him. Although my Son's coach does not video/photograph, he has broken down my sons pitching motion into about 15 movements when we first started his lessons about 2 years ago. Every winter when we star up he makes him go through the motions to make sure everything is ok.
                              Many Theories – One Outcome

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