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  • RANT: Frustrating season!

    As I've mentioned many times, I am coaching two teams in Little League (Juniors 13-14y.o. and Farm 6-8y.o.). My juniors team is undefeated and my farm team is winless. My rant is more towards the Farm team.

    I don't mind the losses at all. I have a younger team (only one 8y.o. who has never played and the rest are 6's and 7's). The other teams are mostly 8's with a few 6's and 7's. I explain this to the parents in the beginning of the season and explain that we are building these players to learn the game and give everyone a chance to play both infield and outfield, whereas several other teams keep their best 5 players in the infield the whole game and sub out their weakest players every game.

    The other teams play very aggressive base running. Some have their kids hit and run around the bases and then call them back to second or first once the play is over. They have their runners run to second when the second baseman has the ball and throwing to first, knowing that if its caught the player is out but if they drop it, then there is no chance the first baseman will make the throw to second. It got so bad that the the league president had to send an email to the coaches explaining that they should not be running non-stop like this, but to play as if the defense will make the play and only go extra bases once the ball is over thrown (one base on over throws, then the ball is dead). He also made it a point to tell coaches that every player should get a chance in the infield and not just the 5 studs.

    The first 8 games or so we were getting 10 runned every game. Now with some of the new rules in place we are still losing but hanging in their within 2, 3, sometimes only 4 runs down.

    I tell the parents not to worry about the score but to look at the progression. We weren't getting more than 3 hits a game at first, but now everyone is making contact and getting 10+ hits a game. We weren't getting any outs at first, but now making 3-4 outs a game.

    Anyways, today we played one these aggressive teams. Our second baseman fielded a grounder clean, was about to throw to first and the base coach sent their runner to second. Our player made the throw and 1B dropped it, but had no chance of throwing him out at second. In other situations the ball was hit to the pitcher with a runner on second and they sent the runner from second all the way home.

    Its just frustrating, it feels like these coaches are taking advantage of the smaller teams when we should all be learning. The scores are not recorded (except for 5 run limits or 10 run mercy rule) and wins and loses don't matter until the end of season tournament (seeding is determined by hat pick), yet all these other teams are not only playing to win but seemingly to win by mercy rule every time.

    Then to top it off I had a parent of a young 6 y.o. tell me that he has noticed his son sit the bench 5 games in a row. My players don't sit more than 2 innings a game and I always double check the previous game to see who sat so that they don't sit a second time in a row. His kid would be a permanent outfielder and sit the bench every game if he was on any other team. Today he sat for 2, played Left Center for 2 and played second for 2. Just like all my other players. And I know for a fact he hasn't sat in more 2 games in a row let alone 5! My only exception is that I need players who focus and can catch at 1B, 3B and Pitcher - for safety reasons, since these positions get the hardest hits and throws at them.

    I just feel like I am getting taken advantage of from the other teams for having a younger team and then I'm getting it from the other end from this parent. And I also feel guilty for some of these players who are really trying hard, but not getting any wins. I don't care about the wins, but I know the kids do to a small degree.

    I don't know. Just frustrated and needed to vent.
    Thanks for listening.

  • #2
    And just to add - we have to ump our own games (at least until tournament) so there is no independent, objective, person to help regulate things.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
      Anyways, today we played one these aggressive teams. Our second baseman fielded a grounder clean, was about to throw to first and the base coach sent their runner to second. Our player made the throw and 1B dropped it, but had no chance of throwing him out at second. In other situations the ball was hit to the pitcher with a runner on second and they sent the runner from second all the way home.
      I don't get it... there was already a runner on first? Why didn't the second baseman just step on second or tag the runner?

      Or the batter had already made it to first by the time the second baseman cleanly fielded the ball? How is that possible?

      Comment


      • #4
        Sounds like our league.

        I was watching a 7/8 y.o. game last night, can't steal home. -- Men on first and second, batter hits a double to right. Throw to the plate from the outfield passes the catcher, run scores, but the catcher secures the ball and is standing on home plate by the time the kid that started on first reaches third. At this point the catcher is about to throw the ball to the pitcher, the play is over. I then hear the first base coach yell at the runner on third "Get in a pickle! Get in a pickle!". The runner proceeds to start running home as the catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher. The pitcher bobbles the ball, hurry’s a throw to the catcher, run scores, catcher bobbles the ball anyways. Facepalm.

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, my son plays on a coach pitch team and his team run bases relatively aggressively compared to the other teams. We want to kids to understand how to lead out on fly balls, tag up from 3rd and sometimes 2nd, etc. Runner on first ball hit to right field, the default is try to get to 3rd. There is an interesting dynamic where some teams think if you ever have to send a player back a base because the other team "killed the ball" at the pitcher, you shouldn't have sent them, but I don't see it that way. I want our kids to learn to run hard and aggressive. That said, we don't have ANY team in our league that would have the batter just round 1st and head to 2nd as the infield is throwing the ball to first. Then again, I'm thinking 80% of the time, that 1st baseman is gonna catch the ball and throw them out at 2nd. It would be interesting to see, but in all honesty, I've never seen such a thing. Also, never have seen a coach yell "get in a pickle." That coach would be run out of town in my league. We also don't have a 10 run rule, so once someone is up by 5+, they usually rotate the weaker players into the infield.

          Jbolt, if you can keep the team together, next year what you are doing now will REALLY pay off and I'm pretty sure that all will see the wisdom. Let's face it, wins and loses don't matter at this age, love of the game and developing the kids matters more. In the end, you'll have a deep team that is hopefully very close, and that = a good time for all. Seriously, one 8 yo that has never played? That team wouldn't stand a chance in our league, so I can see your challenge. For me, (in all honesty), I'd want our kids to stay aggressive against your team, but I'd rotate in the weaker players more and probably call any close play against our own team. It sux to go a season and not have any success at all.

          Hang in there man, the truth will come out in the long run.
          Never played baseball, just a dad of someone that loves to play. So take any advice I post with a grain of salt.

          Comment


          • #6
            Jbolt it sounds like you are the only reasonable one here.... If this is a deveopment league then I woud insist on a meeting to establish ground rules. If this can't/won't happen then I would suggest you maximize the learning opportunities when you can. 6 and 8's on the same team seems problematic for me.
            "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
            - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
              As I've mentioned many times, I am coaching two teams in Little League (Juniors 13-14y.o. and Farm 6-8y.o.). My juniors team is undefeated and my farm team is winless. My rant is more towards the Farm team.

              I don't mind the losses at all. I have a younger team (only one 8y.o. who has never played and the rest are 6's and 7's). The other teams are mostly 8's with a few 6's and 7's. I explain this to the parents in the beginning of the season and explain that we are building these players to learn the game and give everyone a chance to play both infield and outfield, whereas several other teams keep their best 5 players in the infield the whole game and sub out their weakest players every game.

              The other teams play very aggressive base running. Some have their kids hit and run around the bases and then call them back to second or first once the play is over. They have their runners run to second when the second baseman has the ball and throwing to first, knowing that if its caught the player is out but if they drop it, then there is no chance the first baseman will make the throw to second. It got so bad that the the league president had to send an email to the coaches explaining that they should not be running non-stop like this, but to play as if the defense will make the play and only go extra bases once the ball is over thrown (one base on over throws, then the ball is dead). He also made it a point to tell coaches that every player should get a chance in the infield and not just the 5 studs.

              The first 8 games or so we were getting 10 runned every game. Now with some of the new rules in place we are still losing but hanging in their within 2, 3, sometimes only 4 runs down.

              I tell the parents not to worry about the score but to look at the progression. We weren't getting more than 3 hits a game at first, but now everyone is making contact and getting 10+ hits a game. We weren't getting any outs at first, but now making 3-4 outs a game.

              Anyways, today we played one these aggressive teams. Our second baseman fielded a grounder clean, was about to throw to first and the base coach sent their runner to second. Our player made the throw and 1B dropped it, but had no chance of throwing him out at second. In other situations the ball was hit to the pitcher with a runner on second and they sent the runner from second all the way home.

              Its just frustrating, it feels like these coaches are taking advantage of the smaller teams when we should all be learning. The scores are not recorded (except for 5 run limits or 10 run mercy rule) and wins and loses don't matter until the end of season tournament (seeding is determined by hat pick), yet all these other teams are not only playing to win but seemingly to win by mercy rule every time.

              Then to top it off I had a parent of a young 6 y.o. tell me that he has noticed his son sit the bench 5 games in a row. My players don't sit more than 2 innings a game and I always double check the previous game to see who sat so that they don't sit a second time in a row. His kid would be a permanent outfielder and sit the bench every game if he was on any other team. Today he sat for 2, played Left Center for 2 and played second for 2. Just like all my other players. And I know for a fact he hasn't sat in more 2 games in a row let alone 5! My only exception is that I need players who focus and can catch at 1B, 3B and Pitcher - for safety reasons, since these positions get the hardest hits and throws at them.

              I just feel like I am getting taken advantage of from the other teams for having a younger team and then I'm getting it from the other end from this parent. And I also feel guilty for some of these players who are really trying hard, but not getting any wins. I don't care about the wins, but I know the kids do to a small degree.

              I don't know. Just frustrated and needed to vent.
              Thanks for listening.
              How many eight yr olds can be on the team? There should be a maximum allowed to keep a team from overwhelming other teams.

              When I coached pitching machine basically I used the pitcher as focal point of all plays. Basically the pitcher was used to run down the runner closest to home. The fielders were instructed after a play at 1st was attempted to always get the ball back to the pitcher. Outfielders the same.

              Also there were 3 positions I never rotated to keep competitive. 1st base, shortstop and pitcher.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
                Anyways, today we played one these aggressive teams. Our second baseman fielded a grounder clean, was about to throw to first and the base coach sent their runner to second. Our player made the throw and 1B dropped it, but had no chance of throwing him out at second. In other situations the ball was hit to the pitcher with a runner on second and they sent the runner from second all the way home.
                Originally posted by bbrages View Post
                I don't get it... there was already a runner on first? Why didn't the second baseman just step on second or tag the runner?

                Or the batter had already made it to first by the time the second baseman cleanly fielded the ball? How is that possible?
                Yes, I too am curious to what that means or how it plays out....scratch_head.gif
                In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tradosaurus View Post
                  Also there were 3 positions I never rotated to keep competitive. 1st base, shortstop and pitcher.
                  Wrong mentality for this age group (6-8). Being competitive should be on the bottom of the list of coaching priorities at this age. Development of EVERY player should be the ONLY focus as a coach. We're talking Kindergarten through 2nd grade. Every kid should play every position that he can safely play. It's ridiculous that the majority of the kids can't play SS/P/etc. because only Johney is allowed to play there.

                  You have to decide, do you want to win games or do you want to make every player on your team better?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    He also made it a point to tell coaches that every player should get a chance in the infield and not just the 5 studs.
                    This is very dangerous. Most 6 yo should not be anywhere near the infield when an 8 yo is hitting. I would not allow this. Ever.

                    ------

                    Your league sounds out of control to me anyway.

                    6 and 8 yo on the same team? How did anyone expect that to work out?

                    Changing the rules in the middle of the season? Yikes.

                    Allowing unbalanced teams? Asking for trouble and dangerous situations.
                    Last edited by songtitle; 05-02-2012, 07:05 AM.
                    efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      --At that level I rotated players every inning and everybody got to play roughly the same amount at every position. It was a circus at times and some of the kids really couldn't catch well enough to play 1B (or really got it well enough - or were interested enough - to contribute much anywhere). Having fun and keeping them interested was the priority though.
                      --At the next level I am working each kid at one IF and one OF position and playing them at each every game (we use 4 OF and one of the OF half of the platoon pitches the innings their group is OF). We have a week off midseason and will use that to shuffle them around so everybody gets to work a 2nd IF position this season.
                      Luckily I had one kid report eager to catch - he even got his Dad to buy him his own gear . Our other catcher is less enthused but he can handle half the innings for half the game before we shuffle. This approach has allowed them to better grasp the responsbilities of their position without locking them into one or relegating the weaker players to spots with less action.
                      --I am using only the kids who can be counted on to catch the ball at 1B though. Its frustrating for other kids to make a play and not have the 1B turn it into an out with some regularity. Pitching is also on merit. They don't have to be great, but they do need to be able to throw something resembling strikes. Early on 5 of our 10 are in the rotation and hopefully more (or even all) of them will be able to pitch some before the season is over.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                        This is very dangerous. Most 6 yo should not be anywhere near the infield when an 8 yo is hitting. I would not allow this. Ever.

                        ------

                        Your league sounds out of control to me anyway.

                        6 and 8 yo on the same team? How did anyone expect that to work out?

                        Changing the rules in the middle of the season? Yikes.

                        Allowing unbalanced teams? Asking for trouble and dangerous situations.
                        --We had 6-8 on my coach pitch team last year and it was not a problem. Kid pitch is 7-9 so the better and or more experienced kids had moved on. The older kids on our team were mostly first year Little Leaguers and one of our 6 year olds was probably our 2nd best player. I guess it could be a problem if an especially developed 8 year old was in the league or a better player was held back, but it didn't work out that way for us.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                          Jbolt it sounds like you are the only reasonable one here.... If this is a deveopment league then I woud insist on a meeting to establish ground rules. If this can't/won't happen then I would suggest you maximize the learning opportunities when you can. 6 and 8's on the same team seems problematic for me.
                          I think I would find a new league.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bbrages View Post
                            I don't get it... there was already a runner on first? Why didn't the second baseman just step on second or tag the runner?

                            Or the batter had already made it to first by the time the second baseman cleanly fielded the ball? How is that possible?
                            The second baseman plays more in the middle rather than closer to second as most hits to second are hit in this spot. The ball was a slow roller so of course the player takes a couple steps then waits for the ball. Its not uncommon for these batters to be safe on the slow rollers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tradosaurus View Post
                              How many eight yr olds can be on the team? There should be a maximum allowed to keep a team from overwhelming other teams.

                              When I coached pitching machine basically I used the pitcher as focal point of all plays. Basically the pitcher was used to run down the runner closest to home. The fielders were instructed after a play at 1st was attempted to always get the ball back to the pitcher. Outfielders the same.

                              Also there were 3 positions I never rotated to keep competitive. 1st base, shortstop and pitcher.

                              The maximum number of any age is eight players per team. So a team can have eight 8y.o's and then three 7's and one 6y.o. or a combo of this. It just depends on how many kids are in each age group. There are 9 teams in our division and each team has around five to seven 8y.o.s.

                              When I drafted my team I had about 4 kids who requested to be on my team, one had a brother. So I drafted them first knowing that these kids would learn and have fun. But this also meant that I was 5 players in and had not drafted and of the top rated players. By the this time all of the other teams had drafted the top rated 8y.o.s.

                              I am fine with this, but its just the actual game play - I feel like some teams are just kicking a smaller team around when they are already down.

                              Comment

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