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  • #16
    Originally posted by Roothog66 View Post
    If this is the strategy in your league, it's probably worth spending a considerable amount of practice time working on the rundown. I know we did so as 8yos where this was somewhat prevelant and once a team knew you execute the rundown, they stopped pulling that crap. Often in rec or at younger ages, it's not worth giving up the out for one run. Show that you can properly make a "pickle" situation an automatic out once or twice and they simply stop doing it.
    Yep! As soon as they know you have a plan and execute, it all stops. Most times I will give up the run for the free out. Which would you prefer, 1st and 3rd no outs or one out for one run and empty bases. Offensively I prefer 1st and 3rd no outs. Defensively I want the out and empty bases. Obviously towards the end of a tight game I am running a fake play on R1 hoping to catch R3 commiting to soon.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
      Is this without allowing the run or conceding the run to get the runner out?

      Isn't the offense trying to get the defense to make a play on them? In other words, they're trying to score the run and/or take the base without having the defense throw a pitch?

      Even if you get the guy on 1st out, the runner is going to score, right?

      Isn't that the whole point of the baserunning exploit at this age level? That even the teams that practice it can't stop the play without the runner from third scoring? (at least consistently)
      IN the first instance, the scoring is so ridiculous in rec that giving up an out to score a run (unless it's a tie or very close game in the last inning) is stupid baseball. They use this tactic becuase they plan to score the runa nd have determined they are still quite likely to get the trailing runner out of the pickle, too. So, if they want to trade an out for a run from a runner that was in scoring position anyway, let them.

      The second option is just to protect the lead runner (I assume normally on third base) and give up second to the trailing runner and don't sweat it. He was probably just going to end up there with a passed ball or sb anyway at this level, right? Bottom line is don't play their game. Give up second and laugh it off.

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      • #18
        While it's not as common, it does happen at high levels.

        A recent AAA game, R2 considers scoring on a hit to the 7-8 gap. OF makes a great throw to the cut off and the runner stops after rounding third. Batter tries to advance to second and cut off man fires to second base. Batter gets in a pickle between 1st and 2nd and runner on third heads home. Infielder shuts down pickle to make a throw to the plate. Throws slightly off and runner scores batter advances to 2nd.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by real green View Post
          While it's not as common, it does happen at high levels.

          A recent AAA game, R2 considers scoring on a hit to the 7-8 gap. OF makes a great throw to the cut off and the runner stops after rounding third. Batter tries to advance to second and cut off man fires to second base. Batter gets in a pickle between 1st and 2nd and runner on third heads home. Infielder shuts down pickle to make a throw to the plate. Throws slightly off and runner scores batter advances to 2nd.
          It happens in HS all the time! Our team loves to pull the 1st and 3rd, R1 takes off and stops play. It ends up different ways, but more often than not a run ends up scoring, and its for the same reason it works at lower levels. It’s a very complex play that 5 fielders have to have perfectly coordinated, and that takes a lot of experience to get right. Of course at our level all of the players have higher skill levels, and that’s why it doesn’t work as often as it does at levels lower. But it does work. It’s sometime tried in college, but it works even less there, and its very seldom tried above that, and when it is, it’s a very special situation.
          The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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          • #20
            First I'll state I dislike coaches who teach bs baseball to gain advantage at a level of play that will not help any players at the next level. I detest the runners who distract from the game with their dancing on the base paths.

            When there's only the hitter getting a single and taking a big turn: Just run him back to first. Then flip the ball back to the pitcher and have him get ready to pitch. If you don't have leads he will be called out for being off the bases when the pitcher delivers the next pitch. If there are leads let him get too far off the base then run at him. Run him back to the base with one throw do get him out. DO NOT get caught up with rundowns with lots of throws. It takes one throw if a rundown is done properly.

            If there is a second runner on base: You have to teach your players to communicate. The player with the b all can't see both runners at the same time. While the player with the ball has to focus on running the hitter back to first, his teammates have to yell when the other runner breaks. Don't yell until he's in no man's land. Then, turn, plant and fire to the next base. If the runner tries to play monkey in the middle run him back to the preceding base.

            This is all bs. None of it will develop players for the next level. I loved coaching against coaches who taught this stuff by 13U. By 13U it's all they have and people notice they are baseball ignorant.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
              It happens in HS all the time! Our team loves to pull the 1st and 3rd, R1 takes off and stops play. It ends up different ways, but more often than not a run ends up scoring, and its for the same reason it works at lower levels. It’s a very complex play that 5 fielders have to have perfectly coordinated, and that takes a lot of experience to get right. Of course at our level all of the players have higher skill levels, and that’s why it doesn’t work as often as it does at levels lower. But it does work. It’s sometime tried in college, but it works even less there, and its very seldom tried above that, and when it is, it’s a very special situation.
              We were coached in HS as a trailing runner with less than 2 outs to push for an extra base and if your beat get into a pickle hoping the lead runner would get an extra base. It's fun to play and it's fun to watch.

              Not real baseball. You guys and your real baseball. Like everyone else is playing fake baseball. Exploiting a teams weakness is a part of every sport. Now exploiting that weakness into a slaughter is a no no. :cap: When you're playing within the rules to gain an advantage than I don't see anything wrong with it.

              There is extremes at every level and it's all based on prespective.

              We have a coach in our league 10-12yr olds that gets upset if you steal second at will because he has a weak catcher. His whole point is you would never take that risk under "normal baseball" circumstances. My point to him is if you want to defend against the steal move your hotshot ss behind the plate and we wont steal at will. We make defensive position choices all the time based on what talent we have available and what we want to defend against. If an offense finds a hole we make adjustments.

              Should the 12yr old pitchers back off on the bottom half of the 10yr old line up to give them a shot at putting it in play?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by tg643 View Post
                First I'll state I dislike coaches who teach bs baseball to gain advantage at a level of play that will not help any players at the next level. I detest the runners who distract from the game with their dancing on the base paths.

                This is all bs. None of it will develop players for the next level. I loved coaching against coaches who taught this stuff by 13U. By 13U it's all they have and people notice they are baseball ignorant.
                You always talk about the next level like everything we do today is for tomorrow. When in reality at every jump in level you lose 60-70% of the players. Taking kids and winning TOC will be the biggest sporting championship many/most kids will ever experience. It does mean something to the bottom half of your lineup that may never play any sport above rec. They may never be involved in any other sport this structured that allows a championship based on the last 4 months of play.

                Real baseball, never see it above 13u, ignorant coaching, bla bla bla. This mentality comes off as egotistic and arrogant to us lesser thans! Many times it comes after getting beat by a team you feel is inferrior. You can't say they cheated because they played with in the rules. So they result to they are not playing real baseball.

                I am not a Fan of a kid being a monkey between bases but a trailing runner making the defense make a choice is not a problem in my book.
                Last edited by real green; 05-07-2012, 02:41 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by real green View Post
                  You always talk about the next level like everything we do today is for tomorrow. When in reality at every jump in level you lose 60-70% of the players. Taking kids and winning TOC will be the biggest sporting championship many/most kids will ever experience. It does mean something to the bottom half of your lineup that may never play any sport above rec. They may never be involved in any other sport this structured that allows a championship based on the last 4 months of play.

                  Real baseball, never see it above 13u, ignorant coaching, bla bla bla. This mentality comes off as egotistic and arrogant to us lesser thans! Many times it comes after getting beat by a team you feel is inferrior. You can't say they cheated because they played with in the rules. So they result to they are not playing real baseball.

                  I am not a Fan of a kid being a monkey between bases but a trailing runner making the defense make a choice is not a problem in my book.
                  True dat. TG seems to think all we're doing down here with our little 12 and 13 yo's is training them for the major leagues. If by "higher level" he means HS, this kind of stuff still happens there all the time. As far as it not teaching them anything useable at the next level, I think it certainly teaches defenses a few things, which is why you don't see it as much as you move up.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by real green View Post
                    You always talk about the next level like everything we do today is for tomorrow. When in reality at every jump in level you lose 60-70% of the players. Taking kids and winning TOC will be the biggest sporting championship many/most kids will ever experience. It does mean something to the bottom half of your lineup that may never play any sport above rec. They may never be involved in any other sport this structured that allows a championship based on the last 4 months of play.

                    Real baseball, never see it above 13u, ignorant coaching, bla bla bla. This mentality comes off as egotistic and arrogant to us lesser thans! Many times it comes after getting beat by a team you feel is inferrior. You can't say they cheated because they played with in the rules. So they result to they are not playing real baseball.

                    I am not a Fan of a kid being a monkey between bases but a trailing runner making the defense make a choice is not a problem in my book.
                    Because I played through college baseball and returned to coach from kiddie ball rec through college prospect showcase ball I have a healthy respect for the game. I believe in teaching the game properly. I have little respect for the know nothings who try to reinvent the game with gimmicks that don't teach the kids how to play ball. These gimmicks aren't worth a minutes worth of practice when balanced against teaching the game properly.

                    The next level is whatever is the next age grouping. When dealing with 9/10's the next level is 11/12's. At each level the players should be taught as much as they can grasp. Each year they choose to play should be cummulative learning on the proper way to play the game. The coaches who teach the crap get exposed at 13U. It's when gimmicks get a team embarassed due to the increased level of competition. In the LL our family came from, purposely getting in rundowns would create nothing but an out most of the time in 11/12's.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tg643 View Post
                      Because I played through college baseball and returned to coach from kiddie ball rec through college prospect showcase ball I have a healthy respect for the game. I believe in teaching the game properly. I have little respect for the know nothings who try to reinvent the game with gimmicks that don't teach the kids how to play ball. These gimmicks aren't worth a minutes worth of practice when balanced against teaching the game properly.

                      The next level is whatever is the next age grouping. When dealing with 9/10's the next level is 11/12's. At each level the players should be taught as much as they can grasp. Each year they choose to play should be cummulative learning on the proper way to play the game. The coaches who teach the crap get exposed at 13U. It's when gimmicks get a team embarassed due to the increased level of competition. In the LL our family came from, purposely getting in rundowns would create nothing but an out most of the time in 11/12's.
                      I have respect for the game as well and believe in teaching the game properly. The definition of properly is an opinion.

                      Is it a gimmick for the trailing runner to take an extra bag while the defense is trying to keep the lead runner from scoring? Making the defense make a play. I have seen it so many times at every level. Why is this a bastardization of the game?

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                      • #26
                        Recklessly running the bases in a manner that would get a player thrown out at the next level is a bastardazation of the game. Reckless base running is not aggressive base running. What I've seen described in the past two threads is reckless, not aggressive.
                        Last edited by tg643; 05-07-2012, 07:29 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tg643 View Post
                          First I'll state I dislike coaches who teach bs baseball to gain advantage at a level of play that will not help any players at the next level.
                          We often disagree.... But on this I could not agree with you more.
                          "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                          - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by real green View Post
                            We were coached in HS as a trailing runner with less than 2 outs to push for an extra base and if your beat get into a pickle hoping the lead runner would get an extra base. It's fun to play and it's fun to watch.
                            Real, go back to the OP... We were talking about 10 year olds! I think most here would agree what you describe above would be appropriate and in fact a big part of the game at this level.

                            Not real baseball. You guys and your real baseball. Like everyone else is playing fake baseball. Exploiting a teams weakness is a part of every sport. Now exploiting that weakness into a slaughter is a no no. :cap: When you're playing within the rules to gain an advantage than I don't see anything wrong with it.
                            My experience is this, at some point, will always work against you or your players.

                            We have a coach in our league 10-12yr olds that gets upset if you steal second at will because he has a weak catcher. His whole point is you would never take that risk under "normal baseball" circumstances. My point to him is if you want to defend against the steal move your hotshot ss behind the plate and we wont steal at will. We make defensive position choices all the time based on what talent we have available and what we want to defend against. If an offense finds a hole we make adjustments.

                            Should the 12yr old pitchers back off on the bottom half of the 10yr old line up to give them a shot at putting it in play?
                            While I agree with you... this, at some level, makes it about the coaches and not about the players. DO you have evry team in the league beat up on this team because their coaching is poor...

                            Now on the other hand, if I recommended this and he refused to do this because HE wanted to win, then all bets off... That's the point many have made is that it has to go both ways.
                            "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                            - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by real green View Post
                              I have respect for the game as well and believe in teaching the game properly. The definition of properly is an opinion.

                              Is it a gimmick for the trailing runner to take an extra bag while the defense is trying to keep the lead runner from scoring? Making the defense make a play. I have seen it so many times at every level. Why is this a bastardization of the game?
                              Real, how long have you been coaching?? (And I don't mean to ask this in a bad way) I did not gain real perspective on what made sense overall, untill I had a decade or so under my belt and my players were playing college... and a few in the pros. Only then could I understand what made sense...
                              "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                              - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Is it a gimmick for the trailing runner to take an extra bag while the defense is trying to keep the lead runner from scoring? Making the defense make a play. I have seen it so many times at every level. Why is this a bastardization of the game?

                                Every level? I've never seen reckless running of the bases past preteen rec ball. I didn't see it in early teen travel that was high level. I've never seen in it high school ball. I've never seen it in college ball. What levels have you coached and/or played? That you would suggest playing this way suggest you didn't go far enough in the game to get the kind of coaching were you would understand and respect the game.

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