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  • #46
    Originally posted by giantheart View Post
    Age and league are indicators of developmental ability....if the kids play recreational ball, at an age around 11 and under, the main objective is skill development, in a fun competative atmosphere. if the teams are mismatched in ability, which is very common in rec leagues, you shouldn't force the kids in the field to make relay plays and cut offs to tag an aggressive runner..BECAUSE many kids don't have the skills necessary to do so, and forcing them to attempt to perform those skills before more basic skills have been mastered, hinders their development and takes the fun out of the game...its show boating at the expense of kids who don't have the skill sets to perform. At 11 and under, there is no presumption that they should have those skill sets in rec ball... otherwise, it is not recreational anymore.

    It is presumed that by age 12, the kids have either developed those skills and it is developmentatlly appropriate to perform these plays, or if they have not and still want to play, are in remedial instruction.

    Turn the question around and ask yourself...does a 9 or 10 year old kid who has never played baseball before get turned away in your league because he does not have the skills to play? if so, then your right, it is totally appropriate. If no, then you really should not be aggressively running bases unless you know the other team has the developed skill sets to compete effectively. No one is going to care if you win or lose the game and if you do care, you probably shouldn't be coaching rec ball. Go find a travel team to coach.

    From your follow up post...I guess we are not that far off from each other...if your league is that competative than have fun....but what does your rec league do with a kid who has not played any baseball until 10?
    Every level is about skill development until you hit the big show. When does winning become a goal of a team? Not the goal but one of the goals? Our league has standings starting in the minors (9-11). Our division ages over lap allowing more developed players to play up and newer players to play down. We had a first year 11yr old on our minor team last year that as a 12 is competing in the majors and doing very well.

    The coaches are very good. Players learn and grow a lot coming out of our league. The systems and rules throughout the divisions work very well at keeping teams as equal as possible. Game speed at each level increases. The competition drives players improvement.

    Teams shouldn't run up scores on lower skilled teams and besides some one offs they don't.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by real green View Post
      Ruin it for "everyone else????" Who is everyone else??? It seems everyone else are those who played college or pro! So it's dads like me that ruin it for the other 1% of guys that played college or pro.

      Sports are insignificant at every age group. They mean nothing, zilch, nota, so what difference does age have to do with it? Why do you feel 10u rec game is less significant than 12u, 14u, HS, College, or Pros. The players and fans at every level want to play, are competitive, and hopefully have fun.
      Sorry. I should have worded that differently as there's really no way of reading it without it sounding like I am saying dads ruin the league for all the "good coaches". That's not the case.

      What I specifically meant to say is that there is often ONE dad who takes rec league so seriously that they utilize every exploit and/or gimmick, and that forces everyone else to either concede or imitate. I won't elaborate further at risk of offending some even more. It's also an opinion, and CircleChange11 stating his opinion does not make it universal reality.

      I'm not saying "don't take it seriously". But, I am saying that if winning trumps player development (all players, not just the 3 talented kids) then that's a problem at this age.

      My personal view is that yes, anything under high school really doesn't matter (in terms of W-L). I say that as a pitching coach for a team that won a JH state championship and 10yo's in our area won state a few years ago. So, i am literally making a statement that makes my coaching accomplishments less impressive. I've also coached the last 2 league champions, but I'm more proud that I rotate kids 2 innings OF and 2 innings IF continuously, including our best 3 players. In tournament time it was essentially "let the dogs out". During the regular season it was get the players instruction and experience at 4-5 positions, get everyone some pitching experience, and keep people safe and wanting more.

      It's still my view that anything accomplished "before high school" so to speak is really not that big of a deal. But, that doesn't mean you don;t celebrate on the field. What it means is "you DON'T sacrifice player development/involvement just to win the local 10U league title". We can all sit here and say it doesn't happen but we all know better. We could likely analyze the score books of every league champ and see where players played and for how many innings and see how many kids pitched and for how many innings and really gather some information.

      I've only be involved from T-BAll through LL Minors, and 9U and 10U travel with my own kids (JH, HS, NCAA as coach/player), but what I've seen so far isn't impressive ... and I'm not referring to the players. I'm referring to [1] how leagues develop and inform coaches, [2] how coaches utilize, instruct, and develop their players, and [3] whether winning or development takes priority. The draft is the biggest scam of all. There's no tryouts so half of the coaches don't even know all of the players.

      It just REALLY bothers me because now that travel ball occupies the kids that are dominating the league, there is real possibility for the city leagues to really focus on development ... but I haven't seen that occur. Hopefully, my area is just unique, and most everyone else is doing it well.

      ----------------------------------------------------

      Scorekeeper,

      Relax. People sometimes makes mistakes in communication ... especially in the online medium where tone, gestures, expressions, etc are difficult to infer.
      Last edited by CircleChange11; 05-08-2012, 12:19 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
        It's still my view that anything accomplished "before high school" so to speak is really not that big of a deal.

        ----------------------------------------------------

        Scorekeeper,

        Relax. People sometimes makes mistakes in communication ... especially in the online medium where tone, gestures, expressions, etc are difficult to infer.
        Just out of curiousity, why is that?

        I agree 100% at the rec level wins should not be a priority over developing players.

        Yes we have that dad in our league and it's not me! :cap: His lower half playersss bunt 90% of the time. He has been doing it for the last three years. Always works out well in the beginning of the year but by the end most teams have the bunt defense down. The problem is his lower half players all bunt real well but have not adjusted to the speed for normal swings. While all the other teams lower half have improved and can become threats at the plate putting him at a disadvantage.

        That is Bush in my opinion. Sacraficing player development for wins. I know him well and his point is his lower half players are more involved in every game than any other teams lower developed players. He feels he has found a way to get them in the game and seems the kids enjoy it as well. I don't buy it!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by real green View Post
          Just out of curiousity, why is that?
          1. The kids that dominate the youngest leagues are often those who simply have dads that have played baseball with them A LOT.
          2. The position you play at 12 and U leagues often has more to do with your last name and your dad than anything else.
          3. Puberty changes everything, sometimes dramatically.

          Once dad, as coach, is out of the picture, it's amazing how much things change. In general the "good players" are still the "good players" but it's also amazing at how the positions change, the batting lineup changes, and the kids that excel now that they've been given a real chance to compete as a starter.

          Kids play different sports and accept different priorities, etc. I guess I should clarify that when I say "doesn't matter much" I mean as a "predictor of future success". "Doesn't matter" is kind of harsh in that it seems that I'm saying it shouldn't be celebrated or have pride in it. I'm not going to sit here and say I didn't celebrate or I didn't want to win, I clearly did. But, I am saying that it's not as important as getting all of the kids to want to play again next year, or thinking that the 9U all-star team will be the starters on the 2019 varsity squad.

          This is what happens when I try to be brief. =)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by real green View Post
            Every level is about skill development until you hit the big show. When does winning become a goal of a team? Not the goal but one of the goals?
            When it is the objective of the league you are in... every league has an objective and bylaws...If winning is an objective..then you have your answer...if player development is an obejctive..then you have your answer...if your league is trying to do both..then you have to walk a very fine line and it is a judgement call every game..I am not in favor of leagues with dual objectives like that...especially at the young ages.

            Teams shouldn't run up scores on lower skilled teams and besides some one offs they don't
            agree..we are not that far off....as long your not aggressively stealing on teams that have developmental players... I don't see an issue....but you really need to make that clear with the coach and your kids before every game....it is the right way to coach in a rec league where the objective is player development.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by giantheart View Post
              if your league is trying to do both..then you have to walk a very fine line and it is a judgement call every game.
              ... or if your league states one but practices the other.

              Here's what I see: [1] It's about participation and development when it's registration time, and [2] it's not about development once the season starts.

              I also see that it is VERY difficult to find good people that are willing to work together for a common goal, especially when the juices get flowing. It's also very difficult to find people to run the league and there's unrealistic expectations on what those people should need to do in order to ensure that the league runs as intended.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Swing2Hit View Post
                I am no expert and probably have not coached near as long as a number of members. I do understand that coaches at every level of sport regardless of the actual sport take advantage of other teams weaknesses. At youth level play there are just more weaknesses to exploit. To say that upper levels don't exploit weaknesses would be ludicrous. If that were the case why would coaches and players need scouting reports or watch film. They don't just use them to see what the opponents strong suit is. They are looking for weaknesses as well! In basketball a team without size gets exploited inside. In football a team without speed gets exploited outside. In baseball a team without sound defensive fundamentals gets exploited on the basepaths. Should we not bunt because the third baseman is overweight or the opponent does not defend it well? Should we not take two on an outfielder with a weak arm? Maybe a baserunner should not go to third on an overthrow to first when the rightfielder forgets to back up the throw.
                I understand the point that sometimes these rec coaches are going overboard and not teaching the basics and more concerned with wins and losses. Some rec dept are just furtunate to find enough coaches for the teams in the league. Some recs have to call random parents or maybe ask the local basketball or football nice guy if he would help out. This guys only cue is keep the elbow up. His goal is to win to keep the parents and players happy. He is the coach that sets up the machine for 2 hours of BP on the field during every practice while the other kids shag balls.
                You want the answer to the OP, GET THE OUT! They want to screw around on the bases, take an out which is more precious in rec than a run. If you don't want to give up the run, then give up second and have confidence that your defense can get the next guy out. Spend some time at practice getting better at this. In our league the regular season record counts for seeding into the playoffs. Everybody goes so I spend that time working as much basic fundamental stuff as possible. I let them throw the ball around and try to make plays in the game just like we practice. It typically does not begin very well but they all have the ability to learn. They begin to understand what they are and are not capable of. All this in hopes that come playoff time they have learned somethings and honed those skills.
                Exploiting young kids who haven't learned how to play the game yet is nt teaching how to exploit weaknesses. It's not teaching runners anything they will use when they play at a higher level.

                I agree with get the out. At the lower levels of youth ball so many runs are usually scored just get an out even if a run scores. If you don't get either runner out chances are they both score.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by real green View Post
                  I watched a month ago MLB AAA player push for second on a hit that was fielded in the OF gap. Runner on second bluffed he was heading for home drawing the hard throw to the cut off. Runner at third stopped, cut off fired to second, runner at third broke for home. Everyone safe.

                  Score keeper and others pointed out how at the HS level it is common.

                  I have coached for five years. Played through HS. Brother played through college. Father inlaw played AAA. Wife's grandpa was a pro scout. Baseball is very much a part of our entertainment and I think I have a good understanding of the game.
                  The play you described is not taking advantage of the inability of unskilled players to execute. It's an appropriate level of aggressive. Even pros occasionally make mistakes.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
                    real green,

                    Don’t be surprised that there are baseball “snobs” who believe that everything not intended to have the kids sign a contract or commit by the time they’re 17 is BS. Those are the same people who believe rec ball is a waste of time, and is only for fat kids, sissies, and kid whose parents are genetically inferior.

                    It’s a way they make themselves feel superior, which does nothing but prove their inferiority.
                    You need to get your thong out of a bunch. For several years you've ignored what I've stated and tried to define me inspite of how well I've described my philosophies. I've posted many times "the next level" is the level above the level currently b eing played. But for years you have ignored this statement to distort what I've posted. You also lack the balls to call me out because you're gutless. You always refer to me and others you disagree in 3rd party terms when it's obvious to everyone who you're talking about.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I want to be very clear on my coaching philsophy since some putz is trying to twist my words to define me. I've always coached to win. If there's a scoreboard the object of the game is to outscore the other team. But first and foremost in coaching preteens is proper development and fun. Proper development is incremental teaching based on age group and level of competition. What I taught players were skills they could take to the next level in their attempt to play to the best of their abilities and have fun. THE NEXT LEVEL IS THE NEXT AGE GROUP. I've always felt teaching the game properly without gimmicks, developing a passion for the game and developing the mental side of the game created a winning environment. Winning is fun. Winning is a function of playing the game properly not learning some gimmick that will only work today.

                      Teaching gimmicks is wasting valuable practice time. Any parent of any knowledge level can coach preteen baseball as long as they understand one simple principal, "do no harm." Gimmickry is wasting valuable practice time that could be used learning valuable fundamentals. Wasting practice time and gimmickry is doing harm.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        We unfortunately were in the center of a fire storm last year that was the culmination of years of frustration with a coach who wrote the book on "bastardizing" (Tg - perfect way to put it!) the game.

                        Unfortunately, reckless base running a good part of the time (pre-puberty) puts runs on the board, "W"s on the record, and all at the same time devalues the necessity of fundamentally sound baseball and the kids that possess those skills, but aren't as fast.

                        "Just stop it." or "Just get the out." That's all a lot easier said than done. You've got perverse coaches that could write a book on the use of the rules and field dimensions to milk every unearned base and run imaginable. You're asking kids to think on their feet using fundamental skills and a fundamental knowledge of strategy to beat these guys at their game. It's just not that easy. At least not until your kids are more physically mature and especially possess the sort of arm strength that takes away any element of out running the ball.
                        There are two kinds of losers.....Those that don't do what they are told, and those that do only what they are told.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by shake-n-bake View Post
                          We unfortunately were in the center of a fire storm last year that was the culmination of years of frustration with a coach who wrote the book on "bastardizing" (Tg - perfect way to put it!) the game.

                          Unfortunately, reckless base running a good part of the time (pre-puberty) puts runs on the board, "W"s on the record, and all at the same time devalues the necessity of fundamentally sound baseball and the kids that possess those skills, but aren't as fast.

                          "Just stop it." or "Just get the out." That's all a lot easier said than done. You've got perverse coaches that could write a book on the use of the rules and field dimensions to milk every unearned base and run imaginable. You're asking kids to think on their feet using fundamental skills and a fundamental knowledge of strategy to beat these guys at their game. It's just not that easy. At least not until your kids are more physically mature and especially possess the sort of arm strength that takes away any element of out running the ball.
                          I've told this story before.... Years ago I had a coach take advantage of a new pitcher who had problems while in the stretch... The opposing coach had 3 or 4 runners in the first few innings break home while my guy was in the stretch, he flinches and runner scores, clearly taking advantage of a situation (I had several starters down)... I said something during the game and he told me "if I didn't know the game then I should not be coaching." ok... two can play that game... The next inning I had a man on second and third and I told my hitter that if he gets a long 3-1 count on ball three trot to first base paying no attention to the ump or anyone yelling... Once the confusion set in I had the man at third score... The other coach goes nuts.... We get it settled that the hitter only had ball three and he has to return to the plate... Once this happened he goes nuts again yelling that the man on third had to return to third... I have the opportunity to say "Coach, that's a live ball... If you don't know the game you should not be coaching."

                          ...
                          "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                          - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                            I've told this story before.... Years ago I had a coach take advantage of a new pitcher who had problems while in the stretch... The opposing coach had 3 or 4 runners in the first few innings break home while my guy was in the stretch, he flinches and runner scores, clearly taking advantage of a situation (I had several starters down)... I said something during the game and he told me "if I didn't know the game then I should not be coaching." ok... two can play that game... The next inning I had a man on second and third and I told my hitter that if he gets a long 3-1 count on ball three trot to first base paying no attention to the ump or anyone yelling... Once the confusion set in I had the man at third score... The other coach goes nuts.... We get it settled that the hitter only had ball three and he has to return to the plate... Once this happened he goes nuts again yelling that the man on third had to return to third... I have the opportunity to say "Coach, that's a live ball... If you don't know the game you should not be coaching."

                            ...
                            You just reminded me of a payback I had my team play on a coach and another team. With runners on second the third I screamed at my hitter to run when strike two got away from the catcher. Attempting to throw the hitter out at first, the catcher threw the ball into rightfield allowing both runners to score. The second runner scored when the team in the field try to throw out the hitter at second. The hitter was sent back to the batter's box.

                            The other coach and parents were livid. I calmly turned to that side of the field and asked if we could now resume playing baseball the right way.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Our first year of travel last year, we were playing a team that had a runner on 3rd two out and the pitch resulted in strike 2 on a swing in the dirt. Their coach started yelling the batter to run. I'm experienced enough to know that it's possible that this was planned, but it was also possible that he thought it was strike three. However, there was another adult in the dugout yelling "throw it" and "One One One" and "throw it to one". It's the only time I have have come "out of the dugout" and walked to the other team's dugout. I am normally very calm, but I was pissed and would have gladly "talked about in the parking lot" if the adult would have offered.

                              Teams have a right to do aggressive things, even if it's not my preference, by one coach barking commands to another team's players at this age of competition is so far out of line that it cannot be ignored or addressed. A couple of weeks later we played a team where they hit a pop up and one of their dads started yelling "I got it", our players stopped and it dropped.

                              I played competitive college and have lots of buddies that are coaches and when we get together we talk about "grey area" plays such as teaching things like the "knee balk" or little ways that defenders can shield or block runners without garnering the interference call, weays that P can throw pickoff throws low to IB and the big 1B can drop to a knee to field the throw (when he's really blocking the base with his leg), and things of that nature. If you want to, especially at the younger levels, there are a lot of "gray area" ways of skirting the rules or outright cheating and getting it past the umpires.

                              My issue are with guys that have this done to them and rather than think "what a horsepoop way to go about things" they think "Oh man, what a great idea, why didn't I think of that" and identifying "great coaching" with the frequency of exploits or shady conduct.

                              ---------------------------------------------------

                              Our HS team had a play ran against us that we really didn't like. Our coach decided we were going to run that play until we got it banned. It sorta backfired though as we eventually "ran it to perfection" and it became a play we were known for. The play was never banned and its usage has decreased.

                              To me such plays make coaches look smart to people that don;t know any better ... sorta like how the casual fan over-rates the flashiness of a player, rather than the skill.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
                                Our first year of travel last year, we were playing a team that had a runner on 3rd two out and the pitch resulted in strike 2 on a swing in the dirt. Their coach started yelling the batter to run. I'm experienced enough to know that it's possible that this was planned, but it was also possible that he thought it was strike three. However, there was another adult in the dugout yelling "throw it" and "One One One" and "throw it to one". It's the only time I have have come "out of the dugout" and walked to the other team's dugout. I am normally very calm, but I was pissed and would have gladly "talked about in the parking lot" if the adult would have offered.

                                Teams have a right to do aggressive things, even if it's not my preference, by one coach barking commands to another team's players at this age of competition is so far out of line that it cannot be ignored or addressed. A couple of weeks later we played a team where they hit a pop up and one of their dads started yelling "I got it", our players stopped and it dropped.

                                I played competitive college and have lots of buddies that are coaches and when we get together we talk about "grey area" plays such as teaching things like the "knee balk" or little ways that defenders can shield or block runners without garnering the interference call, weays that P can throw pickoff throws low to IB and the big 1B can drop to a knee to field the throw (when he's really blocking the base with his leg), and things of that nature. If you want to, especially at the younger levels, there are a lot of "gray area" ways of skirting the rules or outright cheating and getting it past the umpires.

                                My issue are with guys that have this done to them and rather than think "what a horsepoop way to go about things" they think "Oh man, what a great idea, why didn't I think of that" and identifying "great coaching" with the frequency of exploits or shady conduct.

                                ---------------------------------------------------

                                Our HS team had a play ran against us that we really didn't like. Our coach decided we were going to run that play until we got it banned. It sorta backfired though as we eventually "ran it to perfection" and it became a play we were known for. The play was never banned and its usage has decreased.

                                To me such plays make coaches look smart to people that don;t know any better ... sorta like how the casual fan over-rates the flashiness of a player, rather than the skill.
                                Unfortunately, I've seen this happen too. What a bizarre day that was. It was a LL all star district tournament. The dick parent was from the host team. This happened very early in the game, like in the top half of the first inning. The person was warned by the PA announcer as part of a general warning of etiquette to all the fans.

                                One of the moms from our team was a little late getting there. She arrived after the incident. She was late because she had made personalized cow bells for all of our team's parents with their kid's number on it. They were pretty small, but on a big play when everyone used them it added some excitement. The PA announcer stopped the game and went into the most bizarre diatribe about sportsmanship and the violation of it that these noise makers created. Just weird. One of their parents does something most reasonable people wouldn't dream of doing and there was a very brief, non-accusatory, basically polite message over the PA system. And then a half inning later this woman in the booth just lambasted the mom who brought the cow bells. It was a very viscous and cruel natured attack that put the woman in tears. It was completely uncalled for.
                                There are two kinds of losers.....Those that don't do what they are told, and those that do only what they are told.

                                Comment

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