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  • SI article on Long Toss/Dylan Bundy

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...html?hpt=hp_t3

  • #2
    I'm 5'10" 195 pounds. I eat granola bars and I've watched Chapman pitch 100+ mph. My long toss is 40 to 50 feet. I can squat. I can swim in the hot tub, box up presents, and prospect for fantasy football players.

    I'm still waiting for my call from SI.

    (I am curious what the Royals look for in a prospect... other than cheap and no desire to play even .500 baseball at the major league level.)

    Comment


    • #3
      1. Felix Hernandez is a max long toss guy.

      2. The Royals had what is regarded as the best minor league system in modern history 2 years ago. Some guys graduated to the pros, some suffered injuries. The Royals look for what everyone else looks for in a prospect.

      Comment


      • #4
        How far did Bob Feller long toss?

        Dylan just took over. He took over the whole conversation, talking about specific muscle groups, why he does what he does. Before the session was over, he was teaching them about how the shoulder really works. They were in awe.
        The sad part is... kids will read this stuff and waste time on it. More voodoo.
        Last edited by songtitle; 05-08-2012, 07:25 AM.
        efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JCincy View Post
          I'm 5'10" 195 pounds. I eat granola bars and I've watched Chapman pitch 100+ mph. My long toss is 40 to 50 feet. I can squat. I can swim in the hot tub, box up presents, and prospect for fantasy football players.

          I'm still waiting for my call from SI.

          (I am curious what the Royals look for in a prospect... other than cheap and no desire to play even .500 baseball at the major league level.)
          Hey! Hey! Hey! That's a cheapshot! As a long-suffering Royals fan, I'm quite proud of our ability to develop excellent ballplayers that we then pass on to real ML teams when they're ready for a Big Boy paycheck.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by songtitle View Post
            How far did Bob Feller long toss?

            The sad part is... kids will read this stuff and waste time on it. More voodoo.
            song,

            If you mean by voodoo that there are no scientific studies proving long toss works, then you're right. Thank the doctors again for not even doing a study on the value or lack thereof for long toss programs.

            On the flip side, I've seen Jaeger in person working with kids, and the improvement is amazing. It isn't voodoo. It's really nothing but hard work, lots and lots and lots of throwing, something I am sure Feller did as a kid, which most kids of that day did. They played a lot of pick up ball, where they would throw and throw until they got tired and then went home. Heck, as Cy Young said

            "All us Youngs could throw. I used to kill squirrels with a stone when I was a kid, and my granddad once killed a turkey buzzard on the fly with a rock."

            What kids throw rocks today? If a kid did what Young or his granddad did they would probably get arrested. Instead of throwing rocks, it's now called long toss. Most kids today pitch too much but throw too little. Long toss is a means to throw a lot. Would it be better to do it the Feller/Young way? Possibly. But for whatever reason pick up ball is no longer a part of the baseball landscape, so in its place are more regimented activities like long toss.

            Lastly, if you're going to take that strong a position that it's useless voodoo, then you should really find a way to go to beautiful southern California on vacation and watch Jaeger out at Pierce College with his guys. It's totally eye opening, watching 16 year olds doing long toss from foul pole to foul pole, frequently for almost an hour, often skinny little guys with cannons for arms. Sorry, hard work is never going to be "voodoo" in my book, never, and that's what the Jaeger's long toss program is, hard work. I highly recommend it all young players looking to improve their arms. It's not for everyone (few people like to throw for 2 hours a day every day as Jaeger recommends) but there is no doubt in my mind it really improves the arm strength and arm health of young players.

            -JJA
            The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

            Comment


            • #7
              JJA, that's great and I'm sure its fun, but I know many kids that don't do long toss, and they experience the same velocity results on an actual pitching mound.

              I haven't seen one, but has Jaeger produced a list of velocity improvements on the mound?

              Also, for the few HS teams that I watch closely, the outfielders throw longer in long toss than the pitchers.

              I'm sure long toss is great for outfielders, but I'm going with voodoo for pitchers.
              Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012, 08:28 AM.
              efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                JJA, that's great and I'm sure its fun, but I know many kids that don't do long toss, and they experience the same velocity results on an actual pitching mound.
                That's interesting, your kids are experiencing "the same velocity results on an actual pitching mound", yet JJA never stated any stats for comparison.

                I haven't seen one, but has Jaeger produced a list of velocity improvements on the mound?
                Well you must have found something....because you have players that are "experiencing "the same velocity results".....

                I'm sure long toss is great for outfielders, but I'm going with voodoo for pitchers.
                Unless they use it for what JJA stated it was good for....."arm strength and "arm health of young players".

                That is unless you disagree that "more throwing" doesn't naturally improve "arm strength and arm health of young players" as common sense would say, and many believe.....in which case, I believe the onerous falls on you to prove such a claim.
                In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                  That's interesting, your kids are experiencing "the same velocity results on an actual pitching mound", yet JJA never stated any stats for comparison.
                  People throw 90 with long toss. People throw 90 without long toss. I'm sure you knew what I mean, though. You're a smart guy.

                  Unless they use it for what JJA stated it was good for....."arm strength
                  I'm guessing that 99.99999% of Dads reading this would take 'arm strength' to mean velocity improvement.

                  I believe the onerous falls on you
                  Does it hurt if an onerous falls on me?
                  Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012, 08:59 AM.
                  efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    song,

                    That's the great thing about America. We're all entitled to our opinions.

                    To answer your question, no, I don't think he has actually published that data on his web site. It's a good suggestion and I'll talk to him about it next time we chat. On the flip side, have you read the voluminous recommendations from both players and coaches about the program, from professional pitchers to third baseman to outfielders to pitching coaches, head coaches from high school through the pros? Those most definitely are on his web site.

                    Could be all these guys are wrong (including me) and it's all voodoo, but I'll argue that to take the position is it voodoo is equal voodoo. What evidence do you have that long toss doesn't work? A scientific study would hopefully settle the debate once and for all, but without hard data it's all speculation one way or the other. At least I have carefully studied the program in person, used it with many players and have seen significant improvements with it. That's why I recommend it to all young players trying to get better arm strength and better arm health. Short of pick up ball, it's the best program out there I know of.

                    -JJA
                    The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What evidence do you have that long toss doesn't work?
                      The first sign is that he only has testimonials, and no studies. Isn't this backwards?

                      I've never seen a list of mound velocity before and after for any group of players. Yet, so many endorsements. It doesn't pass the smell test.

                      Also, 'doesnt work' for what? Every time I read about someone promoting long toss, they begin with words like 'velocity improvement' or 'increased arm strength', but when questioned they back down to 'improved conditioning'. I'm OK with improved conditioning, but when they make implied claims about getter faster, I'm pulling the voodoo card.

                      This is why I recommend that any dad get a radar gun and measure his son's progress, on an actual mound, against any and all techniques that people put out there.
                      Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012, 09:16 AM.
                      efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                        People throw 90 with long toss. People throw 90 without long toss. I'm sure you knew what I mean, though.
                        I too have seen the Jaeger program first hand....we had Jaeger instructor Jim Vatcher come out and take our players through an hour and a half "throwing program" which long toss was just a part of, and must say that it is quite an excellent program when used in its entirety.

                        Question to you.....

                        Why are you "sure long toss is great for outfielders, but I'm going with voodoo for pitchers"?

                        So what does it do for outfielders, that it doesn't do for pitchers?
                        In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          mud, long toss uses an outfielder's technique. So, if an OF is throwing longer in LT, then of course, they will throw longer/faster in a game. That's fantastic.

                          But, LT does not use the technique of a pitcher.

                          Look at your own team if they throw LT. A pitcher may get longer in LT, but get no faster on the mound. Outfielders will throw longer in LT, but the pitcher throws faster on the mound than the outfielders.

                          Pitchers only get faster on the mound, when they get bigger/taller, or when they change their pitching technique on the mound.

                          I'm sure we'll settle the long toss debate today. :sun:
                          Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012, 09:35 AM.
                          efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                            The first sign is that he only has testimonials, and no studies. Isn't this backwards?

                            I've never seen a list of mound velocity before and after for any group of players. Yet, so many endorsements. It doesn't pass the smell test.

                            Also, 'doesnt work' for what? Every time I read about someone promoting long toss, they begin with words like 'velocity improvement' or 'increased arm strength', but when questioned they back down to 'improved conditioning'. I'm OK with improved conditioning, but when they make implied claims about getter faster, I'm pulling the voodoo card.

                            This is why I recommend that any dad get a radar gun and measure his son's progress, on an actual mound, against any and all techniques that people put out there.
                            Song I know that you a fan of game speed, game distance.

                            I agree with you that throwing hard will strengthen the arm no matter if it is 300 feet or 30. given the same release velocity the force on the arm is the same.

                            however the advantage of long toss is that it is pushing the thrower. if you don't throw hard enough you won't throw 300. at 60 feet you can take a little off with no one noticing it. there are two kinds of kids:

                            1.kids that always give 110%. those kids are the really intense, competitive kids. they need to be paced or they might hurt themselves

                            2.the other kids (about 70% of all kids at least) are often a little half assed. if you don't push them they will often swing, run or throw only at 60% or so. they will do the drills a little lame. most kids are a little bit like that (I'm not talking about lazy kids here! those kids are showing up and doing the drills,just not with that "eye of the tiger).

                            often we see it here when dads post videos. the kids don't have a really bad swing but they don't swing with intent.

                            type 1 kids might not be helped by long toss and maybe even hurt if you don't monitor it. hard mound throwing will do just the same for their arm.
                            but for type 2 kids some reference of how hard they throw is not bad. they need something to push themselves and falling short of distance does that (a gun would do the same of course). just like you wrote in the batspeed thread: distance is a good and easy control for intensity and a good motivation too.

                            Your arm (or swing) only gets stronger if you throw (or swing) hard a lot. whether it is long distance or short doesn't matter.

                            so the answer is yes, LT does make you throw harder but it is no magic pill and doesn't work any better than other hard throwing.
                            I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                              The first sign is that he only has testimonials, and no studies. Isn't this backwards?

                              I've never seen a list of mound velocity before and after for any group of players. Yet, so many endorsements. It doesn't pass the smell test.

                              I'm OK with improved conditioning, but when they make implied claims about getter faster, I'm pulling the voodoo card.

                              This is why I recommend that any dad get a radar gun and measure his son's progress, on an actual mound, against any and all techniques that people put out there.
                              I suspect that even if Jaeger put stuff on his web site you wouldn't believe it either. I suspect you're like me in that you would like independent confirmation it works from someone not selling services. Makes perfect sense, except for the fact that there are no studies out there one way or the other.

                              Meanwhile, I've got players trying to get to the next level. What do I tell them, wait for the studies to come out before trying the program? Sorry, it's my responsibility as coach to try to do what I can to help the kids with their goals, and right now Jaeger's program is the best I've seen. If something comes up that is better I'm all over it, but I can't wait 10 years for some study to come out. I'm just trying to be practical out there. Cry voodoo all you want, but at least I'm trying to find something that works. You're just saying don't do anything but what you're doing. That's really not very helpful if a kid has a weak arm and trying to improve it.

                              Furthermore, I have seen improvements in using the program. In my particular case, I see improvement to the tune of about 5 mph regularly, 10 mph in very unusual cases. Like Dom said, it isn't a program that will take a guy throwing in the 60's to someone in the 90's. But 5 mph really does matter for fielders who are in the high seventies to instead being in the low eighties, or guys in the low eighties getting to the upper eighties. Take my experience for what it's worth, almost nothing as my sample sizes are so small compared to what a real study would do. But I've seen these improvements regularly, which really shouldn't surprise anyone. If you throw 2 hours a day, you would expect improvement. It sure seems non-controversial to me, but these boards often surprise me about the silly things we argue about.

                              -JJA
                              The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

                              Comment

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