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  • Help on a pitching question

    Here is some pitching video of my 11U doing some recent practice mound work. If you pause it around the 3 and 17 second time notice his arm is almost straight and way outside of his body. One time it actually goes past the tube on the back fence. I assume over time it will stress the shoulder and I am guessing he might be losing velocity due to lagging behind? Any thoughts how big an issue or fixes? I think this is something new but it seems the muscle memory is setting in on this arm path. He has extremely long arms and they seem to have a mind of their own!

  • #2
    sorry here it is

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a7rO-jop8g

    Comment


    • #3
      The new software Mudvine linked is awesome. Here is a picture of what I mean. Nothing like responding to my own thread!!CIMG1431-0.00.14.48.jpg

      Comment


      • #4
        Redsfan1,
        “Here is some pitching video of my 11U doing some recent practice mound work.”
        Have you assessed your sons biological age? This will guide you in allocating competitive and training timelines.
        Your son produces a very good traditional mechanic! Unfortunately these good traditional mechanics are injurious at many points.
        “If you pause it around the 3 and 17 second time notice his arm is almost straight and way outside of his body.”
        This is the gateway mechanic that produces traditional centripetal (centrifuging his arm out and away during ball drive causing intuitive supinated forearm flyout) force application by over early rotating his arm and body past the field driveline (the imaginary line running through the pitchers plate from home plate to second base.) that causes shoulder and elbow pathologies.

        Straight is good at this point, now get the direction back directly towards second base not the second baseman. This can be done better by having him stay up on the rubber with his ball arm foot turned no more than 60 degrees with his toes hanging over the front side of the pitchers plate like Satchel page and Sandy kaufax did it. This can better be done by stepping back instead of sideways.

        I assume over time it will stress the shoulder and I am guessing he might be losing velocity due to lagging behind?
        You are on the right track here, he is continually redirecting his ball and arm mass to then throw it straight losing rotational timing also.

        “Any thoughts how big an issue or fixes?”
        Huge issue that if you watch closely many MLB pitchers are now starting to bring the ball back more correctly by pendulum swinging their arms down then back then up arriving at ball driveline height ( the height of your elbow during vertical elbow drive) at the same time their glove arm foot touches down. Make sure his thumb is up (supinated) at this point also, this will allow him to learn all pronated pitches that will save his elbow from ballistically crashing together from supinated pitches.

        “I think this is something new but it seems the muscle memory is setting in on this arm path.”
        This is when to set in proprioceptive awareness (muscle memory) before it becomes to difficult to do so or an injury manifests. You are really on this, good job.

        “He has extremely long arms and they seem to have a mind of their own!”
        All forwards force is directed by his preparation phase arrival mechanics intuitively.
        He can voluntarily get to the proper positions with the right drills and effort.

        Go to Dr.Mike Marshalls web site and learn the things you need to know to develop your son properly.
        You can even use the traditional bottom half mechanics so not to offend any bodies aesthetic considerations or false beliefs even though he will still be degrading his lower back hips and knees.
        Last edited by Dirtberry; 05-20-2012, 03:21 PM.
        Primum non nocere

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        • #5
          There is no pressure on the arm until foot plant.

          What does he look like then?
          efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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          • #6
            Originally posted by songtitle View Post
            There is no pressure on the arm until foot plant.

            What does he look like then?

            Hope these two shots helpCIMG1431-0.00.01.60.jpgCIMG1432-0.00.15.61.jpg

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            • #7
              Originally posted by songtitle View Post
              What does he look like then?
              He looks a little blurry to me. I would have a doctor look at that.

              ---------------------------------------------

              Top picture looks very good to me. Shoulders are loaded with the pitching forearm vertical.

              Bent front knee.

              The glove side elbow is far from the body, even though the glove is tucked ... which is probably what leads to the leaning toward 1B that we see in pic 2.

              The pitching arms extended away from the body is not a big mechanical issue to me, it's a quality release point.

              For him to throw more "over the top", he'd have to lean toward 1B even further. I don't advise it.

              Edit: Sorry I was rushed during the last post. The only thing I would personally suggest to change is to have him take his "glove side elbow" to hip hip (or take his hip to his glove side elbow, however you want to phrase it). He needs to keep his glove side upper arm near his body, whether his glove is "tucked" or not.
              Last edited by CircleChange11; 05-21-2012, 10:24 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
                He looks a little blurry to me. I would have a doctor look at that.

                ---------------------------------------------

                Top picture looks very good to me. Shoulders are loaded with the pitching forearm vertical.

                Bent front knee.

                The glove side elbow is far from the body, even though the glove is tucked ... which is probably what leads to the leaning toward 1B that we see in pic 2.

                The pitching arms extended away from the body is not a big mechanical issue to me, it's a quality release point.

                For him to throw more "over the top", he'd have to lean toward 1B even further. I don't advise it.

                Edit: Sorry I was rushed during the last post. The only thing I would personally suggest to change is to have him take his "glove side elbow" to hip hip (or take his hip to his glove side elbow, however you want to phrase it). He needs to keep his glove side upper arm near his body, whether his glove is "tucked" or
                not.

                Good info on the glove side arm. He does tend to lean towards first, which might answer why he tends to miss outside facing right handed hitters.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Redsfan1 View Post
                  He does tend to lean towards first
                  I don't mean to pick on you, but do you have a picture of a MLB RHP that doesn't lean to 1B?
                  efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                    I don't mean to pick on you, but do you have a picture of a MLB RHP that doesn't lean to 1B?
                    Most do lean. The question becomes what is the "right" amount of lean for the individual pitcher.

                    There's also a question of whether the glove side arm being away from the body causes a lower, perhaps less optimal, release point for the pitcher.

                    But, the angle of the arm, itself, is not a problem. There's a lot of guys that throw with that arm slot that are considered "overhand" or "over the top" pitchers.

                    It's been my experience that it's easier to repeat a "glove side arm close to body" motion than it is one where the arm is further away, especially when one starts to get excited or fatigued and that arm is used to "swing" the trunk into rotation.

                    Note: I did not look at the video of the kid throwing so I don;t know if he takes his trunk to the GS arm, or if he pulls the GS arm back to the trunk.

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                    • #11
                      redsfan1,
                      “He does tend to lean towards first, which might answer why he tends to miss outside facing right handed hitters”
                      His lean is OK and what should happen.
                      The reason he sometimes misses away to righties is his arm drive is off to the side giving him a horizontal release mechanism when driving his arm in supination, thumb up.
                      Try and urge him towards the top more to give him a vertical release mechanism that can only be achieved by bringing the ball straight back to second base then immediately raising his elbow up when driving his arm in pronation, thumb down.
                      This will eliminate most of the elbow and shoulder mal-mechanics that leads to injuries.
                      He should be finishing like this. With his elbow up and forearm pronated.



                      Last edited by Dirtberry; 05-21-2012, 12:53 PM.
                      Primum non nocere

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                        I don't mean to pick on you, but do you have a picture of a MLB RHP that doesn't lean to 1B?

                        Nope....my assumption is his leaning was pulling his arm causing outside pitches because when he gets a little wild that is where he misses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                          redsfan1,
                          This will eliminate most of the elbow and shoulder mal-mechanics that leads to injuries.
                          He should be finishing like this. With his elbow up and forearm pronated.
                          Like this?

                          pedro_martinez_2004_pitching_action_photofile.jpg

                          Personally, I don't like all pitchers to have similar release points. I like variety based on individuality.

                          What you are looking for is a delivery that is easily repeatable, simple, and safe.

                          IMHO, arm angle at release, within a range, is not a dominant factor in that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Redsfan1 View Post
                            The new software Mudvine linked is awesome. Here is a picture of what I mean. Nothing like responding to my own thread!![ATTACH]108838[/ATTACH]
                            I didn't see this earlier. He needs to stop sweeping his arm back significantly to the 1B side.

                            He's "balancing" by having his arm on the 1B side and his leg "sweeping" and foot elevated on the 3B side. Instead of balances North & South (so to speak), he's balancing East & West.

                            With that arm action he's also not hiding the ball at all and at the older levels will be telling the batter whenever he';s throwing a change, cutter, or curve.

                            He'd be better off just using the "Latin Arm Action" (as I call it) sweeping down to up or "starting the lawnmower", separating the hands and then right to the highest point.

                            I'm wondering if he does this because he's a slightly built guy and this feels comfortable? I ask that as one that was 6'3 135 as a HS senior. He/we can't likely pitch like Clemens/Schilling/Seaver/Oswalt, where they "sit on it", because we lack the core/quad/hip strength to do so.

                            Regardless, "swinging" your leg up versus raising it is going to likely lead to balance situations. That front knee should be headed toward the back shoulder. I'm not anti-foot sweep to the landing spot, although I'd prefer a direct line from foot drop to foot glide/stride to foot plant. There's a high likelihood that he'll "fly open" quite a bit of the time. The only thing we're missing is the glove pointed directly toward 1B to really give it away.

                            I would advise him to clean up some of the stuff to the point where he could "pitch in a narrow hallway" for consistency and repeatability. Since I'm not a pro player or coach and no one should really listen to me, I'd advise him to at least consider watching Verlander's mechanics. As far as pitchers go, V is rather long and lean and has pretty good mechanics.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
                              I didn't see this earlier. He needs to stop sweeping his arm back significantly to the 1B side.

                              He's "balancing" by having his arm on the 1B side and his leg "sweeping" and foot elevated on the 3B side. Instead of balances North & South (so to speak), he's balancing East & West.

                              With that arm action he's also not hiding the ball at all and at the older levels will be telling the batter whenever he';s throwing a change, cutter, or curve.

                              He'd be better off just using the "Latin Arm Action" (as I call it) sweeping down to up or "starting the lawnmower", separating the hands and then right to the highest point.

                              I'm wondering if he does this because he's a slightly built guy and this feels comfortable? I ask that as one that was 6'3 135 as a HS senior. He/we can't likely pitch like Clemens/Schilling/Seaver/Oswalt, where they "sit on it", because we lack the core/quad/hip strength to do so.

                              Regardless, "swinging" your leg up versus raising it is going to likely lead to balance situations. That front knee should be headed toward the back shoulder. I'm not anti-foot sweep to the landing spot, although I'd prefer a direct line from foot drop to foot glide/stride to foot plant. There's a high likelihood that he'll "fly open" quite a bit of the time. The only thing we're missing is the glove pointed directly toward 1B to really give it away.

                              I would advise him to clean up some of the stuff to the point where he could "pitch in a narrow hallway" for consistency and repeatability. Since I'm not a pro player or coach and no one should really listen to me, I'd advise him to at least consider watching Verlander's mechanics. As far as pitchers go, V is rather long and lean and has pretty good mechanics.

                              Being a 5' 7 95lb 11 year old has it pros and cons. I understand what you are saying, but the challenge we have is getting to the consistency and repeatability. He has changed his delivery just in the last few months. The good things I showed him the picture and he wasn't aware the arm is swinging that far back and will work on it. Not sure it will set in for the last 50 days of the season, but maybe during the off season. Thanks

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