Counting pitches -- Is it unsporting?

[rodk]

My son pitches in Little League as a 10u. Rules permit him to throw 75 pitches per game (plus what it takes to finish the hitter who is up when he hits 75). Both sides track the pitch count so it is correct and so the days off rules work.

Long and short, my son was at 72 going into the bottom of the sixth and was working on the first complete game of his life, and it would have been a two hit shutout and the first win of the season for the team after 8 losses. The first guy gets himself out on a comebacker on the first pitch.

Two outs and two pitches left. Doable if the next guy gets himself out on the first pitch.

Except the coach (also the hitter's dad), knowing our team basically has no other pitchers, orders his kid on pain of no dinner to take two strikes to get my son out of the game.

Now I understand that the opponent wasn't going to hit my kid and that was really the only good option left for it was to face someone else. Yet it still stinks to me, like bunting to break up a no hitter or running up the score.

What does the panel think? Is it unsporting or unethical to try to wear out a 10u pitcher by taking pitches not just to take them in the natural course of hitting but to get him out of the game so you have a better shot at winning?

Thanks.

[TexAg]

what was the score of the game? basically, was it strategy to try and win/tie the game or just mean spirited?

[jbolt_2000]

I've seen this happen in almost every single Minor and Major league game where the opponent has their best pitcher on the mound.

For your specific scenario I would say it depends on the score and if we had a chance to win after your pitcher left the game. If it was 1-0 and we had two outs and I knew your only pitcher left was someone who walked players or gave our hitters pitches to hit, then I would tell my player to take until he couldn't take any more. If it was 3-0 or more, with two outs, then I would say let it be and try to hit.

Just about every game at this level I've seen coaches tell players to take a pitch until strike one, beginning with the first inning.

I don't think its unethical or unsporting, I think its just part of the strategy at this level (similar to walked batters going for second with a runner on third).

If you think about it, they even do this at the Pro's to some degree. When a pitcher reaches 100+ pitches, the batters will usually take a few pitches, knowing he is likely to get pulled by 110 or 115.

[bbrages]

The way the question is phrased ("our team basically has no other pitchers" and "to get him out of the game so you have a better shot at winning") suggests that this was done to win the game, rather than just to kill the pitcher's chance at a complete game.

[mudvnine]

My son pitches in Little League as a 10u. Rules permit him to throw 75 pitches per game (plus what it takes to finish the hitter who is up when he hits 75). Both sides track the pitch count so it is correct and so the days off rules work.

Long and short, my son was at 72 going into the bottom of the sixth and was working on the first complete game of his life, and it would have been a two hit shutout and the first win of the season for the team after 8 losses. The first guy gets himself out on a comebacker on the first pitch.

Two outs and two pitches left. Doable if the next guy gets himself out on the first pitch.

Except the coach (also the hitter's dad), knowing our team basically has no other pitchers, orders his kid on pain of no dinner to take two strikes to get my son out of the game.

Now I understand that the opponent wasn't going to hit my kid and that was really the only good option left for it was to face someone else. Yet it still stinks to me, like bunting to break up a no hitter or running up the score.

What does the panel think? Is it unsporting or unethical to try to wear out a 10u pitcher by taking pitches not just to take them in the natural course of hitting but to get him out of the game so you have a better shot at winning?

Thanks.

Just sounds like two different sets of ulterior motives to me. One silent and quite presumptive, one verbal and not so subtle.

Really can't believe that the other coach would be such a dolt to yell that out to his son for all you hear, but then again, I guess nothing about youth baseball stories really surprises me anymore.

For what it's worth, two years from now when he's 12, you'll look back and realize that whatever happened in this situation, is really not all that big of a deal.

Heck, even if he pitched a no-hitter as a 10 y/o, by the time he's entering HS, it won't really amount to a hill of beans, and if either one of you try to hang your hat on it at that level, you'll be the laughing stock of the team (if I may be so blunt).

So, just relax, take a step back, and know that your son did an outstanding job on the mound during the situation(s) presented to him. You can either make it a bump in the road, or a personal victory in the years ahead. Personally I like victories, but that's simply my preference, I know others don't always like seeing things the same.

"Half empty, or half full?"


Best of luck,
mud -

[The Uncoach]

Now I understand that the opponent wasn't going to hit my kid and that was really the only good option left for it was to face someone else. Yet it still stinks to me, like bunting to break up a no hitter or running up the score.

I really don't understand how all of a sudden bunting to break up a no-hitter is wrong. Sorry. 1-0 or 2-0 late in a game if I have someone who can bunt, I'm getting the tying man on base/up to the plate. Until bunting is against the rules, that's just poppycock invented by Bob Brenly when he was managing the Dbacks.

As to your situation, there are 4 balls and 3 strikes available. Is there a reason a coach can't have his players use them?

[scorekeeper]

I think the “panel” has pretty much given you an answer, and my guess is it would be the same answer if you asked it 100 times on 100 different boards. One of the sad things about modern life, is that so many myths have been debunked, and so much long believed dogma has proven to be shall we say not exactly portraying things as that really are or should be. I don’t know when bunting to break up a no hitter was 1st attempted, but I’ll bet at least some time along the line it worked, and once it did, the dogma that its somehow “unsportsmanlike” was born.

The same goes for taking pitches to try to “wear” out a pitcher, no matter what his age. I’d be tickled to death if my opponents just took pitches in order to wear out my pitcher. Why? Because I’d see it as a magnificent opportunity to get ahead in the count, and it’s a proven fact that that’s an advantage to the defense. To me it’s the antithesis of an intentional walk. Where the IBB is a strategy employed by the defense, taking pitches is a strategy employed by the offense. There’s nothing unethical or unsportsmanlike about it at all because its nothing other than an attempt to give a team an advantage of some sort within the rules.

Is using a “shift” against a pull hitter unethical? How about crashing the corners on a bunt? How about putting the guy you think will drive in the most runs in the 4th spot in the lineup, or putting the pitcher you think has the best chance to win on the mound? How about a pitcher actually trying to fool hitters by throwing pitches at various speeds that move in all kinds of directions to different locations? Did your son even once try to do that or did he throw FBs right down the pipe every pitch?

[tg643]

If the game was still winnable by the opposing team it was good strategy.

[leecemark]

--My take is if your son was at 72 pitches going into the last inning with a 75 pitch limit it shouldn't have been up to the other team to force him out. He shouldn't have taken the mound in the first place. If you're 9 games into the season and don't have any other pitchers you can count on for an inning that would be the issue I'd be more worried about than the other team not swinging at the first pitch to help you avoid using one of them.

[tg643]

If the game was still winnable by the opposing team it was good strategy.

[dominik]

I think that it is not good to let 10U kids throw complete games. at this age "everyone" should pitch an inning (of course not everyone but 4-5 guys at least). I would train all the halfway talented kids for pitching and then let the better ones pitch 2 innings and the weaker ones one inning.

I think at 10U it should not be about winning.

that being said a lot of teams use that approach even in the majors. yankee and Red sox hitters are known for this. they will take a couple pitches in the early innings even risking a strikeout to drive the count up. later in the 5th or 6th when the pitcher is tired they will hammer him or hit the middle relief guy who is usually not as good.

In the NL usually the hitters will hack away a little more and try to hit the first fastball that is over the plate.

[songtitle]

1. I think that it is not good to let 10U kids throw complete games.

2. I think at 10U it should not be about winning.

I agree with #1 (limit to 2 or 3 innings max)

I disagree with #2 (when the game starts, you're there to win... to a point)

[Dirtberry]

rodk,

My son pitches in Little League as a 10u.

Your statement should have been, my son is 10 chronological years old but I,m not aware of his biological age or how biological age matters when dealing with these developing elbows.

You see you son’s epicondyle at the Elbow end of his Humerus shows up as translucent in an equated maturer and lesser in a delayed one. This while you may have not known should tell you something!!!!!!

“Rules permit him to throw 75 pitches per game (plus what it takes to finish the hitter who is up when he hits 75).”

Fathers and mothers rules should be no more than 2 innings a week with a 40 pitch limit and even this may be to much for his injurious traditional pitching mechanics.

“Both sides track the pitch count so it is correct and so the days off rules work”

Who cares, your sons growth potential is being perturbed with these high pitch count rules.

”What does the panel think?”

I think that parents of youth pitchers are so ignorant of the biological ramifications and facts concerning injurious force application plus joint over stress at these ages that the causes of this ignorance needs to be exposed and something done about it Globally.

“Is it unsporting or unethical to try to wear out a 10u pitcher by taking pitches”

If the opposing coaches knew what they were doing in regards to this Childs health then you could say it is highly unethical but they have an out, they are ignorant also!!

[ipitch]

What does the panel think? Is it unsporting or unethical to try to wear out a 10u pitcher by taking pitches not just to take them in the natural course of hitting but to get him out of the game so you have a better shot at winning?

The rules say it's perfectly legal to take a pitch at any time. As for the unwritten rule (or pretty much ANY unwritten rule), some people will think it's unsporting and some will not.

There are an infinite number of scenarios that can pop up. Is it OK to bunt during a no-hitter in the 9th inning? What about the 7th? The 3rd? What if the score is tied? What if there's a runner on third? I prefer to just play by the rules, and not worry about the unwritten ones. I'll bunt whenever I want to, and any of my opponents are free to do the same.

[PhilliesPhan22]

1. Drill batter with first pitch.
2. Get next batter to ground into 1 pitch, game ending double play
3. Profit?