Cutting the corner on third

[brett]

I was told about a play that was once used in a highschool baseball game to win the conference. I don't want to get too specific-I was against teaching it to kids, but wondered if anyone else had experience with it.

There were runners on second and third, and the team was down by 1 run with 1 outs in the bottom of the ninth. The batter bunted the ball up the first base line. He was out, but the runner from third scored easily and the runner from second cut the corner at third base by about 15 feet and scored as well. The home plate umpire was handling the bunt, and the other umpire I believe was watching the runner score with his back to the cutting runner. I was told it works when there are only 2 umpires. There were protests from the croud and an appeal at third and even the scorekeeper told the umps that he cut the corner but the umps said he couldn't count him out on appeal because neither ump was in position to see third base on that particular play.

[tg643]

The runner who was taught this play is now in a federal prison for securities fraud. He attributes his demise to the wonderful values his high school coach taught him. There are the little cheats of baseball. But then there's excessive cheating. I find this one to be excessive. This isn't a tactic I would be proud to teach.

[brett]

I was assistant coach for the freshman team and the head coach had coached varsity for 20 some years but didn't have the time so he coached freshman that year. One day he just told the kids that he had this great play and wanted to teach it and had used it to win a conference championship game a long time ago. I told him that I thought it was unethical and if I were a parent I wouldn't want my kid winning a game that way. It was the end of the season but it was a little bit of a shock and I didn't work with him again. Today I just saw a video of the fake to second base with all the fielders pretending it was overthrown into the outfield-that is a great and fair play, but I wondered if cutting third had been caught on video would the ump have been able to overturn it, or could the coach have gotten suspended for it.

[tg643]

I've always believed the time it takes to get a team to master a trick play that may be useful once a season is a waste of time. I believe using the same time to teach a team skills they can use every day is far more productive.

[TexAg]

I wouldn't allow my son to play for a coach that taught cheating.

[CoolHandLuke]

Today I just saw a video of the fake to second base with all the fielders pretending it was overthrown into the outfield-that is a great and fair play...

Not sure how great it is. I've seen teams try this and other similar trick plays. They almost never work, and when it doesn't, the team and espcially the coach look like total donkeys. Not worth the embarassment. Plus I think it sends the wrong message to your team, that they need trick plays to beat the other team.

[CircleChange11]

Not sure how great it is. I've seen teams try this and other similar trick plays. They almost never work, and when it doesn't, the team and espcially the coach look like total donkeys. Not worth the embarassment. Plus I think it sends the wrong message to your team, that they need trick plays to beat the other team.

That's my main objection to such plays. Well, okay, it's my second objection. My main objection is the allocation of practice time toward trick plays, rather than skill development.

My second objection is the message it sends to your players. Whether it's your batter or hitter, the message they get is "we're better off trying this ridiculous, high risk play rather than letting you hit/pitch." You can't take that message back once you've sent it (not to the player or their parents).

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We played a team in Sectionals that did multiple "shady plays" and they worked twice.

Here's one that I see A LOT lately. Throw to 1st by C or P on a "pickoff". The 1B drops to a knee on the runner side of the bag, acting like it's a "low throw" on the that side of the bag. Now, a well orchestrated play would involve a lowish throw on the 2B side of the 1B bag. But, I've noticed 1B's dropping down when the throw is not low and to the 2nd base side.

I have yet to see the call go against the 1B. He blocks the bag, and makes the tag. The runner is out.

Edit: Said opponent in sectionals got their arse sent home, and it felt good.

[ralanprod]

There's cheating, and then there's taking advantage of an opponent that isn't paying attention. Two different things. Using the rules to your advantage - or breaking them.

Cutting the corner - cheating. Fake overthrow into CF - usually pointless, but within the rules.

[ipitch]

My second objection is the message it sends to your players. Whether it's your batter or hitter, the message they get is "we're better off trying this ridiculous, high risk play rather than letting you hit/pitch." You can't take that message back once you've sent it (not to the player or their parents).

Hasn't every pitcher attempted a pickoff at 2nd or 3rd base? So, are they saying to themselves "I'm not good enough to get the batter out on my own"? A trick play is a chance to pick up an easy out. There can be a big payoff if it works, and some of them aren't risky at all, like the fake throw into center. In fact, it's less risky than an actual pickoff attempt at 2nd.

Is there anything wrong with a team attempting a trick play about once every 10 games?

[Jake Patterson]

I agree... I see this as teachiing kids how cheat.

[real green]

I agree... I see this as teachiing kids how cheat.

I agree, but it is a grey area in a lot of sports and what some "coaches" feel is part of the game. For instance, holding in football is very much a norm.

Having batters remove the batter's box lines.

How about this one, taking advantage of the umps technique on close plays at first. Where the firstbaseman leaves early to pop his glove on a close play hoping the ump doesn't catch it.

[tg643]

Up through 14U and middle school I'll say this is cheating. You're dealing with teaching kids values. In high school you can call it what you want. But it's going to bring up another moral dilemna. Was it right for the pitcher to drill this base runner in the ribs in his next at bat?

[mudvnine]

OK, let's take this "play" one step forward.....

What happens if one of the umpires does happen to see the runner intentionally shortcut the base path as described? Besides calling the runner out on appeal, does he then enforce OBR 9.01(d)?

Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field. If an umpire disqualifies a player while a play is in progress, the disqualification shall not take effect until no further action is possible in that play.

Do we think that that might make the coach and/or his players to rethink the benefit of using such a "play"?

[jmcgehee]

I do not agree with the cutting corners scenario at all however a trick play can be benifical to a team at times. Sometimes I will teach a trick play to my kids (9U) to simply defend against another team's attempt at a trick play. It is just to get them thinking a little more while they are on the bases. If a kids pulls off a heads up play on his own to get a runner out then I applaud that player for thinking 2 steps ahead. All of my "trick plays" are legal and if I use them in one game per season it is usally a reward to the boys when we play a "rival" team and they want to have some fun.

[brett]

So if an umpire is not looking and a kid cuts the corner on third, but the ump knows that he must have done it, can he call him out? Who says you can only observe with your eyes?