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  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by tg643 View Post
    The philopshy I've state many times is kids throw to little and pitch too much. As kids we threw and threw and threw. I completed almost every game I started from LL through high school. In high school I sometimes relieved the games I didn't start.
    Originally posted by tg643 View Post
    Yep. The hitting team usually supplied the pitcher and catcher to have a fuller field. The idea was to groove the pitch. I was a starting pitcher from LL through high school (did some relief first two years in college). But I didn't get an inning at 9 and 10 in LL, 13 in BR and junior high and 16 in Legion and high school. Today's travel kids are pitching every week of the season, every year from 9U to 18U. I figure a stud 13U pitcher has as much mileage on his arm at the end of the season as I had when I graduated high school. The big difference is the 12U pitcher is accumulating the mileage on his arm while not through puberty and with open growth plates.
    OK, now I'm thoroughly confused.....

    Posted:

    A.) "I completed almost every game I started from LL through high school. In high school I sometimes relieved the games I didn't start."

    B.) "I was a starting pitcher from LL through high school (did some relief first two years in college). But I didn't get an inning at 9 and 10 in LL.......16 in Legion and high school."

    Interpretation:

    A.) I pitched a lot, "I was a starting pitcher from LL through high school"....."I completed almost every game I started"....and when I wasn't the starter, "I relieved the games I didn't start.

    B.) I didn't pitch that much in LL and HS, as I "didn't get an inning at 9 and 10 in LL" and I only got "16 (innings??) in Legion and HS" during my four years there.

    So either:

    A.) You were the Cal Ripken and Lou Gehrig of LL and HS pitchers, "completing almost ALL" of those game you started and they were a bunch since you were a "starting pitcher from LL through high school", and came on in relief when you weren't on the bump as the starting pitcher......

    or

    B.) You didn't really "start" that much in LL and HS, and relieved even less.....since you "completed almost all your starts", and two or three starts, "almost completed" (5/6 innings?) would be what, 11 to 14/15....out of the "16 innings" of your four years in HS and Legion ball.....and you simply......completely forgot what the hell you wrote a couple posts earlier?? :noidea :disbelief:

    Dammit Jim, I'm a coach, not a linguist.....I can't keep up with all of this "I did this, I did that" kind of double talk.

    Leave a comment:


  • tg643
    replied
    Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
    I don't know about you, but our "pitching" in our pickup games was often times to our own hitters, where the object was not to throw 100% in an effort to strike someone out, but rather to get the ball over the plate so he could "smash it" to make it difficult on the defense.

    So while we "played and played and played", it wasn't the same type of "pitching" that we're now asking our kids to do.
    Yep. The hitting team usually supplied the pitcher and catcher to have a fuller field. The idea was to groove the pitch. I was a starting pitcher from LL through high school (did some relief first two years in college). But I didn't get an inning at 9 and 10 in LL, 13 in BR and junior high and 16 in Legion and high school. Today's travel kids are pitching every week of the season, every year from 9U to 18U. I figure a stud 13U pitcher has as much mileage on his arm at the end of the season as I had when I graduated high school. The big difference is the 12U pitcher is accumulating the mileage on his arm while not through puberty and with open growth plates.

    Leave a comment:


  • omg
    replied
    Showcase Doc and Showcase Trainer are in the mix as culprits. Now that everyone has their own arm doctor there are more injuries. Every kid has an arm or some type of medically sophisticated injury. We had injuries when I played but....I don't mean to sound old school or snobbish but there is truth to what I'm saying. We didn't have athletic trainers in high school. If someone got seriously hurt 911 is called-just like today. In my district every school has an 80k athletic trainer. The athletes go to them all of the time for every little thing.

    Separate from an athletic trainer is Showcase Trainer. He has kids doing a lot of adult exercises which they are not ready for. Kids overtrain and there bodies can't take it. Even the big leaguers, people are starting to think, are over training.

    Leave a comment:


  • Standballdad
    replied
    Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
    Kids play more baseball now.

    It's not 30+ years ago where kids would have just played a 15-20 game LL schedule and that's IT.

    Kids NOW play 40+ travel games + 20+ LL games and more and more.

    12U kids are playing "college schedules".

    There are TWO big issues at play here ...

    1. Playing in multiple leagues at the same time, while never violating either league's pitching rules ... but when combined the amounts smash both league's limits.

    2. Playing more than just one season. Travel teams start practicing indoors in Jan, summer league, and then some play fall league.

    Our kids that play travel ball (required to also play LL) will play 43 games in 67 calendar days. That's absurd. The same kids will then play an extra 10 games for LL All-Stars and then another 15-20 games as they go into junior high ball. Did we do anything like this when "we were kids"?

    No.
    I think you have it right. When we were kids we did throw a lot during baseball season, but that was only during LL. After we were done with TOC and All Stars we would go and play something else (basketball, football etc...) I remembering telling myself I can throw these last game, and then I will have a whole year to rest my arm, because it use to ache and throb toward the end of LL season.

    Leave a comment:


  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by tg643 View Post
    12U kids shouldn't be playing college schedules. In fact, I could argue it's worse. Colleges don't play triple headers much less quadruple headers (tournaments). But we played more as kids. We played and played and played. It mean we threw and threw and threw. The difference is when we were tired we took a break. We didn't have to suck it up and forge on for adults.
    I don't know about you, but our "pitching" in our pickup games was often times to our own hitters, where the object was not to throw 100% in an effort to strike someone out, but rather to get the ball over the plate so he could "smash it" to make it difficult on the defense.

    So while we "played and played and played", it wasn't the same type of "pitching" that we're now asking our kids to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • CircleChange11
    replied
    Originally posted by tg643 View Post
    12U kids shouldn't be playing college schedules. In fact, I could argue it's worse. Colleges don't play triple headers much less quadruple headers (tournaments). But we played more as kids. We played and played and played. It mean we threw and threw and threw. The difference is when we were tired we took a break. We didn't have to suck it up and forge on for adults.
    I agree.

    I've stated that as a kid we played all day. Home run derby's, we had a 2-on-2 ragball league with a lawn chair catcher/strikzone, and when I wasn't with buddies I was throwing a ball against a brick building ... for hours. We did this daily. We played home run derby and Indian ball and 500 even on game days, and we weren't "throwing lobs" from the mound.

    Our 10U players are exhausted. We scheduled 23 travel team games, which is fine. We also play 17 rec league games, which is fine. Doing both within 67 calendar days is leading to (or has lead to) some mentally exhausted 10yo kids. We desperately need to practice (but rarely can due to guys always having rec leagues games on different days), and on Wednesday we'll get that chance. We need to work on "bunts" and "defense" ... so we're going to ...

    1. Place cans of soda on the field where we "want guys to bunt". It's pretty simple, "you hit it, you get it". Might throw a couple of bags of seeds out there as well.

    2. 2 teams of 5 guys (3B, SS, 2B, 1B, P). Using a tee, playing a 5v5 game, with the stipulation that anything hit "in the OF grass" in the air is an out. Offense gets to work on hitting line drives and squaring the ball up, and the defense gets to field real time, game-speed grounders. The coach of the "losing" team has to "run to the barrel" (a trash can about 800 feet from the field).

    These kids need to do something "fun and baseball".

    Leave a comment:


  • The Uncoach
    replied
    Originally posted by tg643 View Post
    12U kids shouldn't be playing college schedules.
    The problem is that a significant number of parents who no longer parent. They worship. They are worshipers of their offspring and there are plenty of "travel" programs available to feed the worshipers.

    Leave a comment:


  • tg643
    replied
    ........ repeat .........

    Leave a comment:


  • tg643
    replied
    12U kids shouldn't be playing college schedules. In fact, I could argue it's worse. Colleges don't play triple headers much less quadruple headers (tournaments). But we played more as kids. We played and played and played. It mean we threw and threw and threw. The difference is when we were tired we took a break. We didn't have to suck it up and forge on for adults.

    Leave a comment:


  • leecemark
    replied
    --We played alot less organized games, but we played virtually everyday and usually for hours per day. I'm sure there we times when I and the kids I played with threw several hundred pitches per day. The only arm preservation rule we had is if you were pitching in a league game that night you didn't pitch in our sandlot game that day. Many of the regulars from those games played through high school and a few into college and none ever had arm problems that required medical attention. Which is not to say my arm didn't hurt most of the summer or that I think we should work kids we are coaching that way. Just that I think the danger of permanent and/or serious damage from kid's pitching is overstated. Of course erring on the side of safety (even to extremes) is pretty much the rule in just about everything now.

    Leave a comment:


  • CircleChange11
    replied
    Kids play more baseball now.

    It's not 30+ years ago where kids would have just played a 15-20 game LL schedule and that's IT.

    Kids NOW play 40+ travel games + 20+ LL games and more and more.

    12U kids are playing "college schedules".

    There are TWO big issues at play here ...

    1. Playing in multiple leagues at the same time, while never violating either league's pitching rules ... but when combined the amounts smash both league's limits.

    2. Playing more than just one season. Travel teams start practicing indoors in Jan, summer league, and then some play fall league.

    Our kids that play travel ball (required to also play LL) will play 43 games in 67 calendar days. That's absurd. The same kids will then play an extra 10 games for LL All-Stars and then another 15-20 games as they go into junior high ball. Did we do anything like this when "we were kids"?

    No.

    Leave a comment:


  • tg643
    replied
    The philopshy I've state many times is kids throw to little and pitch too much. As kids we threw and threw and threw. I completed almost every game I started from LL through high school. In high school I sometimes relieved the games I didn't start.

    Leave a comment:


  • bbrages
    replied
    more pitching = fewer injuries?

    Seems to be at odds with the science (asmi.org)

    Leave a comment:


  • real green
    started a topic Another Pitch Count Theory

    Another Pitch Count Theory

    Could pitch counts be creating more arm injuries?

    Just a thought.

    When I was a kid there were only a few kids that could pitch and they threw a lot! Now you have many more "developed" pitchers to satisfy the pitch count and overuse concerns.

    So instead of having 10 kids in an area that threw 95% of the innings, now you have 50 kids.

    Those 10 kids of the past were the natural throwers for everything within baseball and outside of baseball. So maybe their arms were in better condition to handle the work load and their mechanics were natural and unforced.

    Now we spread out the load to many more arms, but these arms are not in condition because they are not the "natural" throwers that naturally moved into the position. They are kind of forced and "taught" how to throw. Weaker mechanics that are not natural for the kid creating undo stress on the arm.

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