Pitching to Contact

[scorekeeper]

There are many out there who believe pitchers should “tend” to pitch to contact. Would knowing the total # of pitches, the number and percentage of those pitches that were ball or strikes, and the number and percentage of the total called be a way to judge contact?

pitchkinds.pdf

[bbrages]

My analysis:

Tyler and Matthew are pitch-to-contact pitchers, in comparison to Zach. All three are close in "strike percentage" (ie. 100% - ball percentage).

But Zach gets more swing-and-miss and called strikes and Tyler and Matthew get more fouls and many more balls in play.

So the next question, which of these pitchers is more successful? I'd guess Zach, but maybe I'm confused by watching a lot of 9u games where good things happen for a batter who puts the ball in play.


Zach's 16.6% swing and miss tells me he has superior "stuff" and he'd be the one I'd most like to have pitching on my team.

[bbrages]

Whoops, I only looked at the first page of the .pdf.

[CircleChange11]

Strikeouts are generally preferable to BIP, Bull Durham quotes aside.

Pitching to contact at youth ages where defense isn't always that great can be counterproductive. Kyle Boddy had a recent article that was very interesting showing that BIP and errors on GB at youth ages indicated that pitchers might be better off pitching "up" in the zone since the HR/FB rate is far lesser that MLB and many batters cna';t handle those pitches anyway (assuming pitchers have the required control).

IMHO, pitching to contact is more a function of lack of velocity and/or movement than anything else. We can look at the pitch data and likely list the pitchers in order from greatest to least velocity.

[bbrages]

Kyle Boddy had a recent article that was very interesting showing that BIP and errors on GB at youth ages indicated that pitchers might be better off pitching "up" in the zone...

Do you think this holds true even for young kids (8-9-10)? I have been telling my kid to try to keep the ball down in the zone because many young kids have trouble adjusting to that pitch. Also, their error rate for popups is about 50%, I'd guess.

[real green]

Intersting,
I quick look at your info has me craving for more!

What are their traditional stats. How many of the BIP were hits. Do the pitchers have "different stuff" with runners in scoring position? Are they ground ball pitchers? Pitch to contact doesn't mean batting practice right? We're talking weak grounders for easy outs.

A quick 5-10 pitch inning is a wonderful thing. KO pitchers have to grind at times.

I would have to assume Zach has the higher average pitch count per inning?

[CircleChange11]

Do you think this holds true even for young kids (8-9-10)? I have been telling my kid to try to keep the ball down in the zone because many young kids have trouble adjusting to that pitch. Also, their error rate for popups is about 50%, I'd guess.

I think it's especially true for kids 8-10. I think BIP have an abnormal "reach base" rate (not to be confused with BABIP).

I would advise pitchers to keep the ball down. In general, it's a good strategy. I'm not for creating drastically different strategies just to win at different ages. Pitchers will eventually begin to "move the ball around" well enough.

What Boddy misses, IMO, is that we're not dealing with pitchers that can "spot it" at will or locate their pitches consistently. So, when you "keep it down" and miss your spot, you can often do it safely. When you try to "pitch up" and miss your spot, you either air mail it or put it on a tee.

[scorekeeper]

My analysis:

Tyler and Matthew are pitch-to-contact pitchers, in comparison to Zach. All three are close in "strike percentage" (ie. 100% - ball percentage).

But Zach gets more swing-and-miss and called strikes and Tyler and Matthew get more fouls and many more balls in play.

So the next question, which of these pitchers is more successful? I'd guess Zach, but maybe I'm confused by watching a lot of 9u games where good things happen for a batter who puts the ball in play.


Zach's 16.6% swing and miss tells me he has superior "stuff" and he'd be the one I'd most like to have pitching on my team.

You are pretty much spot on in your analysis of those 3 pitchers, who were our 3 starters this past season. Zach and Tyler are both Srs and will be pitching in JUCOs next year, Matt with be a Jr this upcoming season. The reason I noted that, was because while Matt is at this time a “contact” guy, I suspect he’ll be morphing into something else as he gets older, bigger, stronger, and smarter.

Zach is almost the perfect HS pitcher. Left handed, 3 A+ pitches, outstanding control, perfect demeanor, mechanically sound, and very “polished”. His drawbacks are, he’s short by many standards at 5’10”, and only tips the gun at 85-86. With his other attributes he’d be a lock for bright things in the future if he was either 6’2” or had another 4mph on the gun. By any standard, he was the most successful pitcher on our team, and has been for the last 3 seasons.

[bbrages]

What kind of velocity do Tyler and Matt have? Based on the stats, I was guessing Zach pitched harder than they did.

[tradosaurus]

If a pitcher is throwing strikes he is pitching to contact. I use this term "pitching to contact" to give the pitcher confidence to throw strikes.

Even when the other team is hitting well I compliment the pitcher that he is pitching to contact.

[scorekeeper]

Strikeouts are generally preferable to BIP, Bull Durham quotes aside.

Generally, yes, if the main goal is to win the game.

Pitching to contact at youth ages where defense isn't always that great can be counterproductive. Kyle Boddy had a recent article that was very interesting showing that BIP and errors on GB at youth ages indicated that pitchers might be better off pitching "up" in the zone since the HR/FB rate is far lesser that MLB and many batters cna';t handle those pitches anyway (assuming pitchers have the required control).

While that may be true, I’m from the school that says baseball skills are greatly a function of repetition. I see weak defensive skills in the lower levels as being mainly attributable to a penchant for trying to win by using pitchers who are most likely to dominate. While the pitchers and catchers are playing a game of 2 man catch, the rest of the defense often goes into a catatonic state. Heck, at the ML level you can hear people talk about how much better the fielders like it when the pitcher is not wasting much time, and getting lots of balls put into play. If the players at the highest levels notice when they’re not “in the game”, imagine what some little kid feels like. Give the fielders more opportunities to make plays, and there’s no doubt in my mind that the only thing that will happen for sure is, the fielders will get better.

IMHO, pitching to contact is more a function of lack of velocity and/or movement than anything else. We can look at the pitch data and likely list the pitchers in order from greatest to least velocity.

I don’t think that’s a very sure bet at all. It may be for the extreme ends of the spectrum, but for the masses in the middle, they’re all so close to the same velocity, I seriously doubt that even with gunning every pitch velocity would be the main ingredient. Now if all pitchers had an equal capacity for accuracy, movement, pitching out of the stretch, throwing the same pitch types in the same situations, then I could see it. But in general I don’t think its at all true. Unfortunately, I only have one season of data to go on, so I don’t know what will be told as more data becomes available.

Now just because I know there are a lot of ways to look at this subject, here’s how I’ve done it for quite a few years. This way its looked at in terms of pitches.

contact.pdf

[CircleChange11]

Heck, at the ML level you can hear people talk about how much better the fielders like it when the pitcher is not wasting much time, and getting lots of balls put into play. If the players at the highest levels notice when they’re not “in the game”, imagine what some little kid feels like. Give the fielders more opportunities to make plays, and there’s no doubt in my mind that the only thing that will happen for sure is, the fielders will get better.

... yet MLB pitchers only differ in range of BABIP of about 15 points, which most analysts view as "no difference", leading to DIPS/FIP as a key stat.

I am not discounting kids that are not strikeout pitchers. I'm simply saying no one choose to "pitch to contact". They "pitch to contact" because they lack "swing and miss" stuff.

Now, at the MLB level, there are some GB heavy pitchers, namely sinkerballers who are able to be successful because the sinker allows them supress home runs (Jaime Garcia) and/or pitch in the zone more often (Joel Pineira some years back). But in general the guys with the fewer number of BIP do better, whether fielders prefer it or not.

Mark Buehrle is probably the best/extreme example of quick paced pitching and good command/accuracy. His career BABIP is .290 where average is .295-.300.

So the most extreme pace/accuracy pitcher is slightly better than the average, which leads to the conclusion that it "doesn't matter" for most pitchers.

In the 7-10yo leagues I STRONGLY prefer the lesser pitchers getting more IP, because the game is more fun for everyone. As i said before when the guys just "play catch" (as you describe) the only thing that the players learn is high fives and the only ones enjoying the game are the pitcher, his mom, and his aunt.

I also agree about the defense and repetition aspect. Our team's BABIP is about 40 points lower than our opponents, and I attribute this to not being able to practice due to our players also playing in the rec league (where there are very few BIP). IMHO, they'd be better off having challenging practices.

I grew up as a big fan of John "Pitch to contact" Tudor. Not surprisingly John Tudor's best attributes were/are [1] having good accuracy, [2] having Ozzie Smith, [3] playing in very big Busch stadium. Only one was under his control.

Pitchers pitch to contact for the same reason that some basketball players "play below the rim". *grin*

[mudvnine]

Until I can figure out a way to defend the BB, I'm happy with any pitcher that "pitches to contact".....if that's what we want to call it.

I fu**ing HATE walks....especially "lead-off" ones!!! :hissyfit::grouchy

[CircleChange11]

Until I can figure out a way to defend the BB, I'm happy with any pitcher that "pitches to contact".....if that's what we want to call it.

I fu**ing HATE walks....especially "lead-off" ones!!! :hissyfit::grouchy

Let's just call it "throws strikes".

A pitcher can't make a batter hit the ball, which is why some pitchers couldn't pitch to contact if they "wanted to". Pitching to contact is really just throwing strikes with pitchers that batters don't miss. It's not a skill, outside of "throwing strikes"
.

The exception would be at higher levels of baseball where pitchers pound the strike zone with pitches that move away from the barrel such as sinkers, cutters, etc. The pitchers tend to be very high GB% pitchers, with Matt Cain being the opposite with the FB% without the high HR/FB.

But, really, let's just calling "throwing strikes" because that's all it is.

[scorekeeper]

Intersting,
I quick look at your info has me craving for more!

What are their traditional stats. How many of the BIP were hits. Do the pitchers have "different stuff" with runners in scoring position? Are they ground ball pitchers? Pitch to contact doesn't mean batting practice right? We're talking weak grounders for easy outs.

If you really want “more” including “traditional” stats, go to http://infosports.com/scorekeeper/ Look on the left side of the page for both combined and the past season’s numbers.

A quick 5-10 pitch inning is a wonderful thing. KO pitchers have to grind at times.

I would have to assume Zach has the higher average pitch count per inning?

True. Low count innings can save a pitcher.

Yes, his PPI count is higher than the other 2 starters. But if you looked at the data available at the link I gave you, you’ll see that its not as though the other guys were at 10 PPI and he was at 20 PPI. It doesn’t work that way. With him at 15.4 last season and the others at 14.3 and 13.9, he definitely averaged about 7 or 8 pitches more a game, but that’s really not a whole lot considering how many more K’s per game he was getting.

I threw together another way to see this stuff you might find interesting too. I’d never seen it that way before, and I was more than a bit surprised to see how certain innings were just not as “good” as others from the PPI perspective.

pitsninnings.pdf