Is this strategy too risky? I think so

[rodk]

My son's 10u team on a 60 foot diamond had a situation where its potential winning run was on third with less than two outs and a runner also on first. Being too young to make a double play a practical possibility, the defense responded by playing its entire infield ridiculously far in -- even with the pitcher. I never saw anything like it.

Even if that was their highest percentage option in that spot, it seems to me there's also a ridiculous chance someone could get seriously hurt playing that close. The butcher-boy play is illegal at that age specifically to avoid the risk of a fielder being too close to a full swing hit, so why is the defense allowed to set up that way voluntarily?

Does our coach have the right, if not the duty, to protest that as a safety issue when the opposing coach is creating that risk for his own kids? Should the umpire get involved in that situation?

Comments invited.

[CircleChange11]

My son's 10u team on a 60 foot diamond had a situation in a game where the winning run was on third with less than two outs and a runner was also on first. Being too young to make a double play a practical possibility, the defense responded by playing its entire infield ridiculously far in -- even with the pitcher. I never saw anything like it.

If I didn;t have any respect for the integrity of the game and player development at traditional positions, I'd bring our 10U OF's into the infield, forming a "net", with the LF-CF-RF playing slighting deeper than the 3B-SS-2B-1B. Singles at this age eventually turn into doubles and triples via the SB/PB. So, any ball hit out of the IF can likely be ran down by the OF and returned to the IF by the time the runner gets to 3rd, so I figure this alignment would save our defense about 3-4 runs per game. Our OF can play "traditional OF" when the top 4 hitters come up, but no one else is even coming close to hitting the ball to the OF to the point where we feel the need to defend it.

I don't do this for the same reason I don;t run "triple options" and have our QB "roll out" on every play.

Even if that was their highest percentage option in that spot, it seems to me there's also a ridiculous chance someone could get seriously hurt playing that close. The butcher-boy play is illegal at that age specifically to avoid the risk of a fielder being too close, so why is the defense allowed to set up that way voluntarily?

Comments invited.

I think that's a very good question.

I don't think baseball could say that anything closer than 42-feet is "too dangerous" because that's where the pitcher the pitcher ends up, and most are not in a "set fielding position" after delivery.

[TexAg]

Why would it be any more unsafe than the usual play for the pitcher?

[mudvnine]

While I've never brought the whole OF up into or near the INF......I have in the past brought in one OFer and positioned him "up the middle", and moved he, and all of the other INFers up to the IF grass in order to attempt to keep the runner on 3rd from scoring.

The two remaining OFers, are brought into a distance that at least gives them an opportunity to attempt to throw out the tagging runner on 3rd, should a fly ball make it out to them.

In this alignment, no mind is really paid to the runner on 1st, as he'd probably steal 2nd on the first pitch anyway. At that age, I'd suggest you call time and have a conference on the mound (if you have one available) with all players, to assure that they know the reason and goal of what and why they're playing where they are.

That I learned from experience, as one time, from that positioning, our 1B got a nice, easy, and clean grounder.....fielded it, and simply stood up, turned to the bag, and made the easy out at 1st.....when had he just looked to the runner at 3rd, he could have dang near run to the plate and tagged him, he had that much time. :gt

[CircleChange11]

While I've never brought the whole OF up into or near the INF......I have in the past brought in one OFer and positioned him "up the middle", and moved he, and all of the other INFers up to the IF grass in order to attempt to keep the runner on 3rd from scoring.

In 2 years of 10U travel ball, I have only seen ONE play where an OF went back on a ball where they weren't "backpedalling" and make the catch. I see very similar things in the IF, I don;t see many IF drop step and catch balls over their heads. Anything over a player's head (deeper than their starting position) should be viewed as "a hit" until proven otherwise.

So, that's why I'd say to move all of the 3 OF's waaaaay in. There's more hits that drop in between OF and IF than there are balls that would be hit to a traditional OF depth. Our OF's currently stand with their "heels on the grass" as we routinely play on softball fields or fields for older baseball players. But, what I am proposing is bring in the OF to be within 15-20 feet of the baseline.

In our 1st tourney we threw 4 guys out at 1B from RF on ground ball singles.

We had a similar play as you described, but it was hit to our 3B instead of 1B. What I have learned as a teacher, principal, coach is that kids are very often excellent direction followers and too often adults give kids "do what I mean, not what I say" directions.

We previously told infielders to "look at the runner" before you make your throw. We now say "freeze the runner" or "retreat the runner". Because, as you can guess, our 3B looked right at the runner on 3rd that took off, and then he threw to 1B and the runner the scored. He looked at the runner exactly like I said. Our 3B is fast, and if he wanted to he could have chased down the runner with ease. He did make a helluva throw to 1B. What this kid can do when his brain doesn;t get in the way (a rare event) is impressive.

This gives me a good idea for new discussion ...

[mudvnine]

In our 1st tourney we threw 4 guys out at 1B from RF on ground ball singles.

This is still quite common in HS ball. Two weeks ago, in a CIF playoff game, the sophomore RFer threw out three batter/runners at 1st on a 2-1 game. His team is now playing tomorrow at Dodger stadium at 1:30 in the championship game.

We had a similar play as you described, but it was hit to our 3B instead of 1B. What I have learned as a teacher, principal, coach is that kids are very often excellent direction followers and too often adults give kids "do what I mean, not what I say" directions.

We previously told infielders to "look at the runner" before you make your throw. We now say "freeze the runner" or "retreat the runner". Because, as you can guess, our 3B looked right at the runner on 3rd that took off, and then he threw to 1B and the runner the scored. He looked at the runner exactly like I said. Our 3B is fast, and if he wanted to he could have chased down the runner with ease. He did make a helluva throw to 1B. What this kid can do when his brain doesn;t get in the way (a rare event) is impressive.

Oh yes, and why when doing something "out of the norm", it's best to make sure the everybody is on the same page.

That's why when we go/went into the alignment I described above, I suggest calling "time" and explain to them what exactly we're doing......

Me: "Alright guys.....we're playing "in", so we don't let that runner on 3rd score. If the ball comes to you, make sure that he is near the bag and not running....if he is running or way off the bag, either throw him out at the plate, or run at him like we worked on in practice. If he's not running and is close to the bag, then you can throw the guy out at 1st. Everyone understand...any questions?

10 y/o Player: Are we going to get pizza after the game?

Me: Only if you guys don't let that guy on 3rd score...

Players in unison: All right!!

Me: OK, excellent fellas, now let's go get 'em!!"

[rodk]

If I didn;t have any respect for the integrity of the game and player development at traditional positions, I'd bring our 10U OF's into the infield, forming a "net", with the LF-CF-RF playing slighting deeper than the 3B-SS-2B-1B. Singles at this age eventually turn into doubles and triples via the SB/PB. So, any ball hit out of the IF can likely be ran down by the OF and returned to the IF by the time the runner gets to 3rd, so I figure this alignment would save our defense about 3-4 runs per game. Our OF can play "traditional OF" when the top 4 hitters come up, but no one else is even coming close to hitting the ball to the OF to the point where we feel the need to defend it.

I don't know where your team plays, but in our league we have balls off the fences where there are fences and there may still be guys chasing balls on fields without them. Our guys turn on the ball and hit big shots and the occasional clean home run, and that's why I'm so afraid for infielders in so tight.

With a defensive set up like you describe, a routine liner over short is a three base hit every time even in thick grass, and our 9 year olds on the team are doing that, tearing the cover off the ball. A routine hard grounder on crappy city park diamonds can bad hop into a kid's throat and so on.

I agree that the pitcher is exposed and that lots of boys at that age don't get into position to defend themselves, but they also have a fraction more time to see the ball off the bat because of the direct view. As benevolent dictator, I would not let infielders get as close as the pitcher is.

What do you all think?

[real green]

My son's 10u team on a 60 foot diamond had a situation where its potential winning run was on third with less than two outs and a runner also on first. Being too young to make a double play a practical possibility, the defense responded by playing its entire infield ridiculously far in -- even with the pitcher. I never saw anything like it.

Even if that was their highest percentage option in that spot, it seems to me there's also a ridiculous chance someone could get seriously hurt playing that close. The butcher-boy play is illegal at that age specifically to avoid the risk of a fielder being too close to a full swing hit, so why is the defense allowed to set up that way voluntarily?

Does our coach have the right, if not the duty, to protest that as a safety issue when the opposing coach is creating that risk for his own kids? Should the umpire get involved in that situation?

Comments invited.

No he has no right to protest and the ump shouldn't require a minimum distance. There is no more or less risk than what the pitcher is facing.

Many times I feel our defense is to deep giving up dink hits. I feel a 10U hitting a shot 175+ is much less likely than the dinks over the infield. I would rather defend against the dinks and give up a few good rips.

[NoonTime]

My son's 10u team on a 60 foot diamond had a situation where its potential winning run was on third with less than two outs and a runner also on first. Being too young to make a double play a practical possibility, the defense responded by playing its entire infield ridiculously far in -- even with the pitcher. I never saw anything like it.

Even if that was their highest percentage option in that spot, it seems to me there's also a ridiculous chance someone could get seriously hurt playing that close. The butcher-boy play is illegal at that age specifically to avoid the risk of a fielder being too close to a full swing hit, so why is the defense allowed to set up that way voluntarily?

Does our coach have the right, if not the duty, to protest that as a safety issue when the opposing coach is creating that risk for his own kids? Should the umpire get involved in that situation?

Comments invited.

Was the thinking that with all the infielders this far in that they would be able to look the runner back to 3rd and still get the out at 1B without the run scoring?

Why not walk the batter to set up a force at home and maybe get the home to first double play?

[CircleChange11]

I don't know where your team plays, but in our league we have balls off the fences where there are fences and there may still be guys chasing balls on fields without them. Our guys turn on the ball and hit big shots and the occasional clean home run, and that's why I'm so afraid for infielders in so tight.

We have those.

I said I would play OF at regular depth for top of the order hitters.

In our first tourney, my son had 3 liners to middle-deep OF. Since the D scooted way back when he came up, they were just singles. It was evident to me that our opponents had more experience against good hitters than we had, otherwise they wouldn't have backed up their OF. These hits are not all that common, and it can depend on the specific team. We have also had fence clearing homers, both for and against. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I would say the ratio of "bloop hits" to "oh my gawd he crushed that one" are 3:1 in favor of the "I can;t believe that was a hit" types.

With a defensive set up like you describe, a routine liner over short is a three base hit every time even in thick grass, and our 9 year olds on the team are doing that, tearing the cover off the ball. A routine hard grounder on crappy city park diamonds can bad hop into a kid's throat and so on.

A lot of thinking goes into who's pitching, the size of the batter, who is playing what position, etc. With a big kid at the plate, we wouldn't bring in all of the OF (as I said, I've never done this, but been tempted to). I'm talking about batters who the only way they're putting it over the OF's head is if they happen to have the swing of their life and the pitcher threw it just where the batter needed it to be. It happens, but not rarely enough to alter your defensive alignment.

I know what you mean about the GB's. Our pitcher gave up a GB home run the other day. Our OF was playing the batter to be late, he hit a hard grounder just to the 3B side of second base, and the runner was fast enough to get all the way home before our CF could get the ball, throw it to the cut and cut to home. It was a "never seen that before" moment. Later in the day we gave up another one as we played on a "parking lot" (very hard infield) and a routine two-hopper to our shortstop jumped way over his head and rolled a long way on a field with no fence.

I agree that the pitcher is exposed and that lots of boys at that age don't get into position to defend themselves, but they also have a fraction more time to see the ball off the bat because of the direct view. As benevolent dictator, I would not let infielders get as close as the pitcher is.

What do you all think?

I tend to agree with this.

[soceric]

My son's 10u team on a 60 foot diamond had a situation where its potential winning run was on third with less than two outs and a runner also on first. Being too young to make a double play a practical possibility, the defense responded by playing its entire infield ridiculously far in -- even with the pitcher. I never saw anything like it.

Even if that was their highest percentage option in that spot, it seems to me there's also a ridiculous chance someone could get seriously hurt playing that close. The butcher-boy play is illegal at that age specifically to avoid the risk of a fielder being too close to a full swing hit, so why is the defense allowed to set up that way voluntarily?

Does our coach have the right, if not the duty, to protest that as a safety issue when the opposing coach is creating that risk for his own kids? Should the umpire get involved in that situation?

Comments invited.

Bad defense... So the third baseman plays half way in, and allows the runner a lead even with him. Ball in dirt and he scores. Ball wasn't even put in play.

Why not just put the batter on, play infield in, and get the out at home if the defense can't check a runner?

[shake-n-bake]

Yes. That coach is putting 10 y/o players at risk of injury....potentially very serious injury. Even if it were the exact same risk as the pitcher faces (which obviously it isn't) it's flawed logic to say they face no more risk than the pitcher so it should be ok.

It's more like saying it's ok to have the pitcher be 4 or 5 times more likely to get stung by a come backer when strategy to win a game at the 10u level dictates it's ok to accept that risk.

You're right there are normally rules at that level that prohibit pulling the bunt attempt back and taking a full swing. The coach is circumventing the spirit of that rule. Plain and simple.

Someone should take the lid off the can and at very minimum stop play to discuss the safety of the kids in this situation. Not often am I in favor of a parent / spectator becoming involved. In this case though if no one else takes the first step, then I guess they have to be that someone.

Look if you're the defense in this situation you load the bases and look for a force at home with the defense in a reasonable infield in alignment --- and/or you assess your possibility of getting a strike out before / after / in lieu of loading the bases.

[tg643]

The opposing coach is responsible for his players. He positions his players. You aren't. You don't position his players. The umpires aren't. They are there to apply the rule book. I've seen first and third 1/3 of the way in at the corners on LL fields. They need great reflexes.

[shake-n-bake]

The opposing coach is responsible for his players. He positions his players. You aren't. You don't position his players. The umpires aren't. They are there to apply the rule book. I've seen first and third 1/3 of the way in at the corners on LL fields. They need great reflexes.

Maybe, but if you feel there's something fundamentally wrong with it and you play on anyway...................?

You can fill in the dots with all the bad things that might happen and to what extent you either feel culpable or will be held culpable. Some things transcend 10U baseball.

I personally would not stand even with the pitcher along the 3B line while someone was pitching to a 150 pound 10 year old swinging a drop 10 or better BESR bat.

[tg643]

Maybe, but if you feel there's something fundamentally wrong with it and you play on anyway...................?

You can fill in the dots with all the bad things that might happen and to what extent you either feel culpable or will be held culpable. Some things transcend 10U baseball.

I personally would not stand even with the pitcher along the 3B line while someone was pitching to a 150 pound 10 year old swinging a drop 10 or better BESR bat.

I was being factual. My first reaction would be ... "Are you kidding? Are you trying to get your players hurt?" Then I would mind my own business, probably after being told to do so and checking to see if the sun doesn't actually shine there.