Coaches: Whats the point of yelling or arguing with Umpires?

[jbolt_2000]

I am a pretty easy going guy, don't get upset too easily (except when my players make the same mistake over and over again ), don't yell at umpires, and so on. When a call is made that I feel is wrong I will express my disagreement by saying something like, "Ahh, he got under that tag!" or I speak to my player, "Looked like you got him, we'll get it next time." I am particular easier going when we only have one umpire. If there are two or three and a base ump makes a bad call I will ask for help from the home plate ump, but other than that I just usually let "bad" calls go.

I see other coaches and yell and argue and complain. I get parents on my team get upset sometimes when I don't yell or argue a bunch.

My take on it has always been this:
1) With one umpire - He is often not in a good position to see a tag made on a base, particularly when alot is going on (multiple runners, different attempts on plays from one hit, etc...)
2) With multiple umpires - sometimes they miss a call. I can ask for help by home plate, but 99% of the time they will agree with the field ump or not even allow me to ask for help.
3) I am not objective and my view of things is limited by me wanting the play to go my way and I am usually in a horrible position to see the play (except on plays at 3B )
4) Most of these umps are volunteer or kids and the ones that do get paid are paid very little (the most I've seen is $35 for Juniors games). I know H.S. and TB umps get paid more, but not in Little League.
5) 99% of the time the umpires don't reverse their call unless the other umpire saw something different. Yelling isn't going to make the umpire think he saw the wrong thing.
6) Yelling and arguing is just going to create animosity among all of us. And I want to make sure the umps stay objective and not subjectively make calls against my team because he's made or embarrassed by my actions.

So for those reasons above, I do not yell or get terribly upset on calls I think are wrong. I usually let them go or at the end of the inning explain what I saw to the umpire in hopes that he is more aware if the same play happens again.

So, do you get upset and yell at umps? What's the point? Do you ever win an argument with an umpire after yelling at them? It always seems counterproductive to me and disrespectful. I just don't see any benefit of it.

[steddie]

I never saw any benefit in yelling at the ump -- always seemed better to use humor if possible to express frustration. Like you said, they rarely change the call anyway, especially when you make them dig in their heels. He either knows he made a suspect call or he doesn't. If he "knows" he will appreciate the respect you show him, if he does not know, aggressive behavior might start him mentally rehearsing his " you're outta here!" hand gesture in case you escalate further. So, while you can't ignor the bad call, don't mess up your "make up call" next inning

[Cannonball]

OK, so I've argued with umpires a lot. I viewed a call one way or the other and want to let the umpire know. In some places I just feel that this is necessary. No, I don't want to get in to that statement more. However, I have a rule. I will argue my point and get after it some but not extreme. In fact, I feel that 99% of the time, someone in the stands will not hear my voice. Then, as I leave, I make my point one more time and ALWAYS SAY that I won't bring up this call again. Why you might ask. Because some programs just harp and harp on a call and in doing so, turn an umpiring crew against them. Also, a coaching staff that does this forgets to coach their team. So, I make the point not only to the umpire but also to myself.

What you might then ask is if I think that this does any good? I do think this, I think that a vast majority of umpiring crews in my area really respect the fact that once I leave they have heard the last reference to that call and that I am going to proceed with coaching and not complaining.

[Jake Patterson]

OK, so I've argued with umpires a lot. I viewed a call one way or the other and want to let the umpire know. In some places I just feel that this is necessary. No, I don't want to get in to that statement more. However, I have a rule. I will argue my point and get after it some but not extreme. In fact, I feel that 99% of the time, someone in the stands will not hear my voice. Then, as I leave, I make my point one more time and ALWAYS SAY that I won't bring up this call again. Why you might ask. Because some programs just harp and harp on a call and in doing so, turn an umpiring crew against them. Also, a coaching staff that does this forgets to coach their team. So, I make the point not only to the umpire but also to myself.

What you might then ask is if I think that this does any good? I do think this, I think that a vast majority of umpiring crews in my area really respect the fact that once I leave they have heard the last reference to that call and that I am going to proceed with coaching and not complaining.

I can't say I "never" argued with an ump or ref, but you can count the amount of times I did on one hand. My favorite thing to do in order to make a point was to call time and ask the ump, "Blue, help me understand that last call."

Old story - but I'll tell it again.... We had an ump Tom Bohara, who just retired after his 64th year of umping. Tom is about 5' tall and one of the hottest tickets I ever had the privilege of sharing the field with. I had a player steal second base - he slid in, stood up, and was wiping the dirt off his pants when the fielder made his tag. Tom called the runner out. I immediately called time and went out to speak with Tom. Calmly I said to Tom, "Blue you and I both know you blew that call." The 80-year-old ump, without batting an eye, stared at me, pointed his finger right in my face, and said. "Yes I did, but he's still out." We both smiled and I returned to the dugout.

Here's a little on Tom... Go down about one page... http://ctsportswriters.org/goldkey.html

[CircleChange11]

I can't say I "never" argued with an ump or ref, but you can count the amount of times I did on one hand. My favorite thing to do in order to make a point was to call time and ask the ump, "Blue, help me understand that last call."

I've been ejected from two college games as a pitcher (one of which I was on my way out anyway), but never as a coach.
In college I said these two things to be ejected ...

1. "Is that one of those new round plates?"

2. "I think I'm bleeding you're squeezing me so hard."

I didn't really think either of the two was ejection worthy, but y'know.

As a coach, I don't argue/yell as a rule for the simple fact that it sets the parents off. We all know it doesn't reverse a call and can even lead to more "close calls" going against you. But as a youth coach, the last thing I need to do is manage the fans or deal with a young player who has just witnessed his dad/mom being ejected from the park ... possibly resulting from them just following my lead. Some of our dads (who are also big dudes) could easily be goaded into a "Oh yeah ump, I'll see you in the parking lot" types, and follow up on that promise.

I will say, I have never, ever, called an ump "Blue", but always "Sir". I guess I always figured it was difficult to interpret someone as being insulting when they start off with "Sir" ... provided it wasn't a "Sir, you're more horsepoop than an unkept stable." type comment.

When I need to make a point regarding balls and strikes, I simply ask the umpire or my catcher if they were set up in the center. If he catches the pitch without moving his glove and he was set up center, I think everyone gets my point. When it's my son that catching, I will even say something like "<Son's Name>, you better have been set up middle because you caught that pitch without moving your glove." That's about as nasty as it gets.

I'll also ask an umpire "Did my fielder hang onto the ball?" on plays where (to me) it's obvious the tag beat the runner.

I'll definitely add the "Please help me understand that call." to the repitoire.

If I were a HS head coach, my arguing incidents would be more frequent due to the older age of the players and what can be at stake. I've also noticed at that level of play (as an assistant) that "make up calls" do, in fact, exist. Arguing can be a formal request for a make-up call later in the game.

[Ursa Major]

JB, I can't remember what age level you're coaching at, but that makes a huge difference. If the kids are 12 and below, there not only is no point in arguing a call, but you're undermining the important lesson to kids that they're supposed to respect the officials (as well as their coaches and opponents). The only legitimate point of arguing (beyond incorrect rule interpretations) is (a) if you think an ump might be skewing his calls to avoid getting yelled at by an overzealous opposing manager and you want to make sure he realizes that it goes both ways, and (b) if an umpire is getting lazy and isn't getting in position to make good calls.

What's usually critical is making your point to the umpire that you disagree with the call (assuming you've clarified as to why he made the call, as often the ump sees something [like a dropped ball on a tag] that you didn't) without showing him up. Rolling your eyes or shaking your head just makes you look juvenile and ticks everyone off. It's okay to say - as you suggest -- ""Looked like you got him, we'll get it next time." BUT, you should do so quietly to the kid and not allow the ump or parents hear you say it.

What is important is to tell the kids AND PARENTS before the season starts that there will be many, many calls made by umpires and some will be perceived to be bad calls, but that is as much a part of the game as kids dropping pop-ups. There is to be no taunting or arguing with the umps or yelling "Hey, that was a strike on our guy" or anything like that. My rule of thumb is that anything more than a long, low whistle or an "Oooooooh" is too much. You as the manager are responsible for their behavior, and they reflect on your team.

In our HS's last game of the season (a playoff loss) last week, the game was terrific and hard fought but the kids clearly respected each other and interacted wonderfully. But the opponents had about a half-dozen parents barking over every other pitch, and it was like watching a game while someone scratched his fingernails down a blackboard all game. It really soured the experience for what should have been a great time for both sets of fans.

[JCincy]

I don't yell at the ump. I might ask him to help my pitcher by telling him the location of the pitch, etc... I've come close, but I've managed to keep the volume down. I'm not sure how sometimes.

Our teams been victimized by 'homer' umps and 'inexperienced' umps.

I had an umpire decide go off on a fan sitting in the parking lot watching the game from Centerfield. The fan happened to be a very popular A.D. at the local high school. The poor umpire supervisor probably received 100 calls at least. The umpire finished the year(?!), but was not back the following year.

[songtitle]

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[jbolt_2000]

I coach 13-14s (LL Juniors) and Farm, but have been up and down all of the Little League divisions and some Travel Ball and Fall Ball mixed in there.

I actually have a good reputation with our local umps and can usually ask them what they say that I didn't on a certain play. I get upset sometimes, but my personality is usually just to let it go and let my players do it better next time so the call isn't so close.

No matter what, even if it was a horribly called game, I insist my players shake the umpires hands just as they do to the other team each game (I know there is whole other discussion about shaking hands, but I digress ). I think its important for the kids to learn that even though things don't go their way every time, they still need to show respect and understand that everyone is out there for the love of the game and not making bad calls or plays on purpose (just as our players are not missing grounders or striking out on purpose).

[tg643]

I almost never argued with umpires. Besides after a while you're seeing the same umpires all the time. What I would do was subtlely work umpires lookng for the makeup call I felt my team was owed. A makeup call is the benefit of the doubt on a call that could go either way. Most of the time I thanked the umpire for doing a great job after the game.

One year in 16U I was an assistant. I charted pitches. I once told an umpire in my view he didn't miss a call the entire game. He appreciated it coming from a coach. They know they miss calls. Umpires started coming to me after games for my assessment of their game. These were state association qualified umpires where many do high school games. With the exception of a couple of horses behinds I was always social and friendly with umpires at travel touornaments.

[jbooth]

I am a pretty easy going guy, don't get upset too easily (except when my players make the same mistake over and over again ), don't yell at umpires, and so on. When a call is made that I feel is wrong I will express my disagreement by saying something like, "Ahh, he got under that tag!" or I speak to my player, "Looked like you got him, we'll get it next time." I am particular easier going when we only have one umpire. If there are two or three and a base ump makes a bad call I will ask for help from the home plate ump, but other than that I just usually let "bad" calls go.

I see other coaches and yell and argue and complain. I get parents on my team get upset sometimes when I don't yell or argue a bunch.

My take on it has always been this:
1) With one umpire - He is often not in a good position to see a tag made on a base, particularly when a lot is going on (multiple runners, different attempts on plays from one hit, etc...)

Oh, but your position from outside the lines is better?

2) With multiple umpires - sometimes they miss a call. I can ask for help by home plate, but 99% of the time they will agree with the field ump or not even allow me to ask for help.

By rule, you have no right to ask another ump for help, and by rule, any ump who did not make the call, CANNOT give help or overturn the call.

3) I am not objective and my view of things is limited by me wanting the play to go my way and I am usually in a horrible position to see the play (except on plays at 3B )

Good observation.

4) Most of these umps are volunteer or kids and the ones that do get paid are paid very little (the most I've seen is $35 for Juniors games). I know H.S. and TB umps get paid more, but not in Little League.

The amount they get paid really shouldn't be a factor, but it is nice that you cut volunteers some slack.

5) 99% of the time the umpires don't reverse their call unless the other umpire saw something different. Yelling isn't going to make the umpire think he saw the wrong thing.

Good point, that yelling isn't going to change my call, and below I get into when an ump MIGHT want to ask his partner for help.

6) Yelling and arguing is just going to create animosity among all of us. And I want to make sure the umps stay objective and not subjectively make calls against my team because he's made or embarrassed by my actions.

I can tell you that there are a few amateur umps who WILL screw you, if you continually give them a hard time. I always tell people; why would you want to risk setting yourself up to get screwed? Do you really think he is going to make better calls because you bug him? In my 27 years of umpiring, I NEVER screwed a team by deliberately making a call wrong, that went against them. But, I will admit that on calls that were so close that you could flip a coin to decide if it was out or safe, I didn't give the benefit of the doubt, to the jerk coach.

So for those reasons above, I do not yell or get terribly upset on calls I think are wrong. I usually let them go or at the end of the inning explain what I saw to the umpire in hopes that he is more aware if the same play happens again.

Good philosophy.

So, do you get upset and yell at umps? What's the point? Do you ever win an argument with an umpire after yelling at them? It always seems counterproductive to me and disrespectful. I just don't see any benefit of it.

There is no benefit, there are only possibilities for things not to go your way.

If you are dealing with well trained, experienced umpires, there is no point in yelling at them or making comment. They will just ignore you until you go over the line, and then you'll be told to knock it off, or you'll be ejected.

Yelling and making comments won't make them better if they ARE bad. If they are good and make most calls correct, then you shouldn't be yelling. A short outburst that shows frustration, or that you saw the call differently is OK, but to come out and discuss it is pointless, and to keep on commenting long after the play, will not endear you to the ump.

First of all; the RULES state that all judgment calls are final. That means that when the ump who is responsible for the call, makes it. It's a done deal. He COULD change it, but they are taught at umpire school to NEVER do that, UNLESS it was a play where he obviously did not see a critical part of the play. Such as calling an out on a tag, when the ball is on the ground, not in the glove. THAT would be one of very few circumstances where an ump could ask his partner for help.

Second, by RULE, no other ump can overturn the call of another. You can ask the ump who made the call, to get help, but he doesn't have to. And, if you go to another ump to plead your case, that ump by RULE, must simply say, "It was his call, if he asks me for help I can give it."

But, even if the ump decides to confer with his partner(s), only HE, can change the call.

Changing calls is not good umpiring. If you change one, then you have set a precedent that you can be talked into changing calls, and every coach is going to want you to change every call that they think you got wrong. You just can't get into that mode.

[omg]

1...But, I will admit that on calls that were so close that you could flip a coin to decide if it was out or safe, I didn't give the benefit of the doubt, to the jerk coach.

2....Changing calls is not good umpiring. If you change one, then you have set a precedent that you can be talked into changing calls, and every coach is going to want you to change every call that they think you got wrong. You just can't get into that mode.

1. That's an interesting admission coming from an experienced umpire. Appreciate the truthfulness. No doubt there are also umps who give the benefit to the squeaky wheel or to the favored team.

2. I see from the umpire's viewpoint why this is good strategy. Still, I think the point is to get the call correct.

[tg643]

One time I showed up for my son's high school game straight from a business appointment. I went to the far corner of the parking lot to change from a suit to shorts. The umpires were also back there changing. I knew them from coaching travel baseball and basketball (some officiate more than one sport). They said the issue every umpire in the league has with my son's coach isn't that he's a whiner and argues so many calls, but that when he does he doesn't know what he's talking about. A dad who was an umpire and I would shake our heads the coach didn't know the rule book well and wasn't aware of changes from the previous season.

[jbooth]

1. That's an interesting admission coming from an experienced umpire. Appreciate the truthfulness. No doubt there are also umps who give the benefit to the squeaky wheel or to the favored team.

In my experience, I haven't seen guys do that. They don't favor the nice guy, but I do know a few amateur umps who I do not respect, that will deliberately screw a guy who has ticked them off.

Not all umps handle things the same, at the amateur level. But, all umps do have a tendency to listen more patiently to a coach who rarely says much, versus the guy who thinks constant comments give him an edge.

2. I see from the umpire's viewpoint why this is good strategy. Still, I think the point is to get the call correct.

Sure, we all try to get them all correct, but sometimes you miss one, and that's just the way it goes. Believe me, I've seen what happens in a game when calls start to get changed. The fans start to go crazy, the coaches start questioning every call. The team that had one changed against them, now wants you to give them one, etc, etc. It gets ugly. I changed a call ONCE, in my first year of umpiring, and I never changed another in the next 26 years. That's how ugly the first game got after I changed a call in the second inning, I heard nothing but junk for the next 5 innings from BOTH teams.

Just like the 80 year-old that Jake mentioned. I once blew one really badly at third base. Called out when he was clearly safe. I did almost the same thing as the 80 year-old. I looked at the 3rd base coach and said, I blew that one, but he's still out.

[TexAg]

I haven't yelled at an ump because I don't think it's worth it, but I have argued calls. Not things like if a kid was out or safe at first, or if a tag was made or not, but if he makes a bad call based on the rules. A couple examples from the past couple weeks:

- one of my kids tags up on a fly to the OF. He leaves the base when the ball hits the OFer's glove, but the OFer bobbles it a few times before getting control. The ump calls my kid out because he left before the OFer caught the ball. I argued that's not the rule, that the rule was a first contact with the ball. He consulted the rule book and changed the call.

- my RFer caught a fly and threw to 1st to get the runner who failed to tag. My 1st basemen caught the ball with his foot on the bag, but then turned to make a tag on the runner who then knocked the ball out of the glove. Ump called him safe at 1st because of the dropped ball. I argued that the tag and drop are irrelevant because the out was already made once the ball was caught with his foot on the bag. The ump consulted with the home ump and changed the call for the 3rd out.