Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Arm injuries: Cricket vs Baseball

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Arm injuries: Cricket vs Baseball

    We've all been party to the discussions with Dirtberry and others about pitch counts, mandated days off and weekly maxes and so on.

    I'm here to add this to the discussion to see if anyone knows about this related issue or at least has a theory, and maybe there's some science we all could apply to protect the kids either here or somewhere.

    I have been watching a little cricket lately and asking questions to people in the know to see if I can import anything from cricket to help my kid's baseball generally and his pitching specifically even though I think cricket is really closer in nature to tennis than baseball.

    If you have seen cricket, you know the bowling isn't really like pitching, especially since the bowler runs up and delivers the ball windmill style with a giant leap and without snapping his throwing elbow.

    I would think that type of violent motion would be very tough on the shoulders of bowlers even though they don't typically throw the ball as hard, plus bowlers use a lot more elbow and wrist twisting and odd grips on a somewhat heavier ball to get hitters out.

    It is also the case that cricket doesn't really have substitutions, so you don't have a string of relievers coming in or on the bench the way baseball does.

    But neither do you have bowlers make 25 or 35 deliveries in a row the way pitchers do. Bowlers pair off and alternate after each 6 bowl "over" and then both yield to another pair and shift into the field after some number of overs that constitutes a "spell" and then come back later for the next spell. And that is done without warmups in the bullpen.

    That system is remarkably different than baseball, where you would never have a pitcher rest for a few innings and then have him pitch some more in fear stiffness after sitting out can lead to injuries, and even if you were willing to do that, it is against the rules in some leagues.

    The test matches can also last as long as 5 days (maybe 6 hours a day with a lunch break) and some bowlers are expected to go at it every day for the duration of a match, though nowadays the play is primarily in the form of single day matches of fixed length (50 overs per team). But cricket is not as busily played as baseball; no classic 7 day schedules week after week that can burn out a whole staff. Indeed, there may be weeks off in which there's no competitive play. There's also year round play, unlike baseball which goes out of season in most of the country.

    But I don't think cricket sees the number or extensiveness of the injuries that pitchers do.

    So does anyone have the skinny about injury rates of pitchers and bowlers? Does anyone have any conjecture as to whether there are different results and why? Are bowlers throwing less? Is the problem the number of pitches thrown in a row, contrary to the spell system? Is it use or speed or the combination of fast breaking stuff that is precipitating injury?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Rodk,



    ” I can import anything from cricket to help my kid's baseball generally and his pitching specifically”
    Watch how Cricket bowlers attain a straighter acromial (shoulder) and acetabular (hip) alignment during their pendulum swing and bring the ball up to arrive at driveline height (height of the elbow during ball drive above the head) at the same time their glove leg plant occurs. Now watch how they drive in parallel (shoulders to hip) rotation attaining full 180 degrees of rotation at the recovery phase.

    Get your child to do these things and he will eliminate shoulder mal mechanical stress. Get him to pronate all his pitches to eliminate all elbow pathologies other than lack of fitness ones that youth pitchers can not get over because of their growth potential concerns.

    ”If you have seen cricket, you know the bowling isn't really like pitching”
    When comparing the traditional pitching motion you are correct but if you are comparing a non traditional pitching motion like the one Lincecum uses this is less true. Notice the ulnar flexion of the wrist in the bowler that indicates he is powerfully pronating this stroke.

    “especially since the bowler runs up and delivers the ball windmill style with a giant leap and without snapping his throwing elbow”
    The results from running up remain alike in that when he plants his forward leg all this momentum stops and is converted into rotational force because he has his arm (humerus outwardly rotated) also transitioned early unlike the traditional pitching motion where this transition is much later and much of the rotation is lost also because of it.

    Cricket rules dictate that the bowlers can not bend their elbows more than 15 degrees when pendulum swinging and driving but since it is ballistic and can not be seen they may get away with some fudging. Since they do not bounce their elbows from late humeral transition they eliminate the dreaded MCL ruptures (UCL degradation) that baseball traditionalists produce.

    Spondylolysis is the most often encountered injury with fast bowlers playing first class cricket. Stress fractures at other sites are common in fast bowlers and occur primarily in the metatarsal bones, the fibula, and the tibia.

    ”I would think that type of violent motion would be very tough on the shoulders of bowlers”
    Their alignment and axipetal (ball drive from over the bodies rotational axis) deliveries eliminate this problem even with a ball that weighs much more because the head of the Humerus is not grinding across the glenoid cavity like a mortar and pestle!!

    “even though they don't typically throw the ball as hard”
    Their fastest twitchers attain over 100 MPH even with the heavier ball !!
    I would agree that it would be not as many as with baseball but with their superior Crow hop mechanic I may be wrong here?

    “bowlers use a lot more elbow and wrist twisting and odd grips on a somewhat heavier ball to get hitters out”
    They are also allowed to dose the batters at will!! Ouch!! Again notice this Bowler ulnar flex his pitch that produced powerful pronation.

    ”It is also the case that cricket doesn't really have substitutions, so you don't have a string of relievers coming in or on the bench the way baseball does”
    And they still don’t attain arm and shoulder injuries? Their big injury is lower back strain from bending at recovery.

    ”The test matches can also last as long as 5 days (maybe 6 hours a day with a lunch break) and some bowlers are expected to go at it every day for the duration of a match”
    So much for ASMI’s (Dr.Fleisig) contention that pitch counts is what injures you with the injurious traditional pitching motion with adults!!! We all know it’s the mechanic now don’t we?
    If you have the substrate energy storage (stored capacity) you can just keep pitching if your mechanics are non injurious.

    “There's also year round play, unlike baseball which goes out of season in most of the country.”
    Another nail in that long wooden box, rest equals atrophy and baseball pitchers have this down to a science.

    ”But I don't think cricket sees the number or extensiveness of the injuries that pitchers do”
    Not at all other than recovery injuries in the lower back and legs (hammies).

    So does anyone have the skinny about injury rates of pitchers and bowlers?
    There are to many secrets to attain correct numbers with baseball pitchers but Dr.Andrews says it’s a matter of when you will see him.

    Does anyone have any conjecture as to whether there are different results and why?
    They results are huge!! And Dr.Marshall has laid out the why’s, learn them and you will protect your child better than all the rest and he will produce a much better competitive game, guaranteed!!

    “Is the problem the number of pitches thrown in a row”
    With adults it’s mechanics, with youth pitchers it’s mechanics and use!

    “Is it use or speed or the combination of fast breaking stuff that is precipitating injury?”
    Supinated fast breaking stuff will destroy you, pronated fast breaking stuff will not!
    Last edited by Dirtberry; 06-09-2012, 04:59 PM.
    Primum non nocere

    Comment


    • #3
      lincecumVSakhtarslow.gif

      Sorry, Dirtberry. You stumbled into the exact wrong case to premise conclusions upon, and that affects the weight of your opinion.

      Your gif filename, http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...akhtarslow.gif reveals the name of the bowler whose form you praise so much. He is Shoaib Akhtar, a gifted Pakistani player who played in many leagues and tournaments around the world. He ostensibly holds the bowling speed record of a little more than 100 mph, though part of that is the momentum of his 25 or so yard run up and not just his delivery.

      But over a career of some 16,000 bowls (http://cricketnext.in.com/stats1/htm...htar-5634.html) which would be roughly 5 years worth of pitches for a major league starter, according to Wikipedia, "Akhtar's career has been plagued with injuries, controversies and accusations of poor attitude (emphasis mine)...In a triangular series in 2003 held in Sri Lanka, he was caught tampering with the cricket ball, making him the second player in cricket to be banned on ball tampering charges....In the 2004 home series with India, he struggled with wrist and back injuries, which raised questions about their commitment to the team....He was sent back from the 2005 Australia tour with a hamstring injury amid rumors of indiscipline, lack of commitment and attitudinal complaints....The rest of his cricketing career was riddled with ankle and knee injuries which forced him to undergo a surgery in February 2006, until finally he was banned for two years for allegedly using performance enhancing drugs...On 5 December 2006 Akhtar and Asif were acquitted by the tribunal appointed to review their appeals against the drugs ban imposed on them by an earlier committee...."Exceptional circumstances" were cited including discrepancies between the instantaneous offence charges of doping that were laid and the quick delivery of a very harsh verdict. The complete drug testing procedure was concluded to have been technically flawed as it did not follow standard procedures. Other established facts by the committee included that the duo were not aware of the banned drug to be present in their supplements because the Pakistan Cricket Board itself had not informed them of the dangers of contaminated supplements."

      Basically, Akhtar is Manny Ramirez, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, and Ryan Braun all in one. So who knows what to make of his performance and injury results, and how do you premise good science on this one example?

      Additionally, from the gif, it seems like you are comparing apples to oranges anyway, and who knows how that affects the results. I don't know if Lincecum can get the same elevation that Akhtar can because his shoulders are much broader. If Lincecum wears a size 40 suit, then I guess Akhtar is a 36. So if Lincecum's form isn't quite as good as possible in terms of being straight overhead, I don't know if it can be improved either, so there's not much of a lesson for young ball players here.

      FWIW, this video says Lincecum's mechanics are great.

      Moreover, the gif and what little I know about cricket suggests that Akhtar's grip is very different than a pitcher's, I don't necessarily think that his mechanics alone are affecting the injury results. Akhtar seems to be holding the ball in his palm; it is a bigger, elliptical ball and I think he has three fingers on it to keep it steady in his hands as he runs up to the crease, something more possible because no matter how fast they throw, bowlers aren't really trying to deceive hitters that much by having a single motion that can disguise various speeds and breaking pitches. Pitchers hold the ball in their fingers for that purpose, which in turn produces an unavoidably greater moment of inertia that would seem to create additional stress.

      So the issue remains of what comparisons to make as between the sports, and whether any conclusions from them can be applied.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by rodk; 06-09-2012, 09:55 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Are you kidding me "rodk"? You basically confirmed everything injury wise that DB stated. :disbelief:

        He stated....
        Originally posted by Dirtberry
        Spondylolysis is the most often encountered injury with fast bowlers playing first class cricket. Stress fractures at other sites are common in fast bowlers and occur primarily in the metatarsal bones, the fibula, and the tibia.
        ....and you come back and write....
        Originally posted by rodk
        The rest of his cricketing career was riddled with ankle and knee injuries which forced him to undergo a surgery in February 2006
        He wrote....
        Originally posted by Dirtberry
        Not at all other than recovery injuries in the lower back and legs (hammies).
        ....and you come back with...
        In the 2004 home series with India, he struggled with wrist and back injuries....He was sent back from the 2005 Australia tour with a hamstring injury
        And you say that....
        Originally posted by rodk
        You stumbled into the exact wrong case to premise conclusions upon...
        Hell, it sounds like you pretty much proved DB's case for him with your own research.
        In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

        Comment


        • #5
          Rodk,

          “Sorry, Dirtberry. You stumbled into the exact wrong case to premise conclusions upon, and that affects the weight of your opinion”
          Don’t be sorry Rodk, you asked for this to be discussed and I obliged you with my opinion and since I am the only one here that has actually tested through practice and competition the likenesses of these 3 mechanics I thought it would have some merit.

          ”Your gif, reveals the name of the bowler whose form you praise so much.”
          This is not my GIF and the name of the Bowler was unknown to me before you wanted to vent about it. His form is praised in part and is very close to where we would like baseball pitchers to be but never make the common mistake of “all or nothing” when discussing or pissing on a subject.
          “though part of that is the momentum of his 25 or so yard run up and not just his delivery”
          This run up is preparation only, Bowlers basically attain the same stopping motion that pitchers perform at initial forwards force. Notice the body timing of the 2 after foot plant, basically identical. I do believe that the stopping force is heavier with the Bowler hence the lower half injuries. Lincecum has these type injuries forming for his future I believe but his top half is pretty good and close to the Bowlers and where we want it. Lincecums mechanic is far from traditional.

          ”But over a career”
          Who cares, I thought you were talking mechanics similarities and what we can take away from them as positive or negative, I was not answering you in the gotcha world?

          ”Additionally, from the gif, it seems like you are comparing apples to oranges anyway”
          I thought we were discussing overhead throwing mechanics and their bottom half drive characteristics like adults, apparently you wish this to be a pissing contest as usual for most on these boards and I sick and tired of these snotty responses.

          I don't know if Lincecum can get the same elevation that Akhtar can because his shoulders are much broader.
          Who cares about the degrees of, in your all or nothing scenarios, I was claiming likenesses not exactitudes.

          “So if Lincecum's form isn't quite as good as possible in terms of being straight overhead, I don't know if it can be improved either”
          He is close but can be improved tremendously!!!! First he needs to shorten his leg drive length and not step across his field driveline, this decreases his ability to rotate and pitch down his acromial line. Second, he needs to pronate all his pitches like he used to, his experimentation with the supination curve has slowed him down by loosening his glenno Humeral ligaments and made him fight his axipetal drive to a more centripetal one. Third, he needs to arrive at ball driveline height at the same time his glove leg touches down. These improvements I believe would allow him to get near 100 mph and have a better game with pitches that move both ways by pronation only!!

          “so there's not much of a lesson for young ball players here”
          You have this backwards!! Add the changes I have suggested and youth pitchers will dominate.

          “FWIW, this video says Lincecum's mechanics are great.”
          Somax has so many things incorrect it is pretty much useless. They describe all the wonderful actions that occur that to them are the reasons why Lincecum has a cannon that occur long before actual forwards force is started yet they don’t even see it. This is typical in many diagnosis’s by well displayed attempts to explain what is happening and they all get the phases wrong by adding in these early preparations to actual drive when in reality they are actually disruptions in the Kinetic chain.

          “Moreover, the gif and what little I know about cricket suggests that Akhtar's grip is very different than a pitcher's”
          Who cares, a cricket ball has no seams. Grip has little to do with an overhead acceleration graph of the end of the hand (finger tips) speed at release and both balls leave the middle finger in the same manor.

          “I don't necessarily think that his mechanics alone are affecting the injury results”
          All pathologies can be traced to fitness and mechanics, this is a fact not an opinion.

          “Pitchers hold the ball in their fingers for that purpose, which in turn produces an unavoidably greater moment of inertia that would seem to create additional stress.”
          Non injurious stress even in greater increments need only be matched with fitness! Do you think adult pitchers are ever fit enough to actually compete? I do not and have witnessed this process and performed it sport specifically fit and have the results that confirm this.

          ”So the issue remains of what comparisons to make as between the sports, and whether any conclusions from them can be applied”
          I gave you the comparisons and the reasons their shoulders and elbows last even with heavier ball and more force through leg drive mechanics, apparently you Evylin Wooded those recommendations or ignored them, what up? Your child is worth a better effort.
          Last edited by Dirtberry; 06-09-2012, 05:00 PM.
          Primum non nocere

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
            Rodk,


            All pathologies can be traced to fitness and mechanics, this is a fact not an opinion.
            Interesting since on 5/24 on my post about my kid being deprived of a complete game, you hade a completely different opinion.

            Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
            Fathers and mothers rules should be no more than 2 innings a week with a 40 pitch limit and even this may be to much for his injurious traditional pitching mechanics.
            So which is it? pitch counts or form that is at the root of injury? And at what point is it a fact?

            This is not a pissing contest. I'm not selling anything or taking any point of view other than wanting good science. Your admittedly unresearched unwitting praise for a performance enhanced nutjob as the crux of your argument doesn't do it for me.

            Try again. Real science, real footnotes, and real support from the medical community if you have it. Or just admit it is just your opinion, not facts and I take it for what it is worth. No $10 dictionary words either.

            Comment


            • #7
              RodK,

              “Interesting since on 5/24 on my post about my kid being deprived of a complete game, you hade a completely different opinion”
              The opinion at this particular time was predicated on discussing youth pitchers whom should be treated entirely differently than adults as in the current discussion, this was explained pretty much in detail to you, you apparently did not understand the differences in adults and youth pitchers and why they are different.

              “So which is it?pitch counts or form that is at the root of injury?”
              As stated previously, with adults injurious force application (injurious mechanics) is what injures you along with in-appropriate fitness.

              With youth pitchers it is injurious force application, fitness and use!! If a youth pitcher performs non-injurious force application he is still susceptible to pre-solidification of the growth centers that perturbs his growth potential plus degradation of these areas.


              “And at what point is it a fact?”
              Physiological facts are what they are and apply to all athletes by way of their tenets and principles long ago studied and proven. Exercise physiology is not new and has long standing provenance.

              ”This is not a pissing contest. I'm not selling anything or taking any point of view other than wanting good science”
              Good , then the attitude adjustment will be appreciated!

              “Your admittedly unresearched unwitting praise for a performance enhanced nutjob as the crux of your argument doesn't do it for me”
              See, hence your predisposition to piss and be snotty or maybe this is just the way you treat every subject and don’t realize you do this, who knows but I can sure hear it in every sentence you write, you do not wish to discuss it maturely and it results in tearjerking me around. Everything I use has been researched and proven and much of it when I was learning it at the university level 40 years ago when kinesiology was in its early stages but still around long enough to be established.

              ”Try again. Real science, real footnotes, and real support from the medical community if you have it”
              You ask this of me and yet you do not ask it of others who produce anecdotally observed information like those ASMI recommendations that you also broke?

              “Or just admit it is just your opinion”
              All scientific information is someone’s opinion based on how they arrived at the collected discovery, peer reviewed articles produced by businesses never have their materials actually reviewed by experts in a selected detailed field but generalized since they don’t actually cross-check through the same procedures that the information was derived from.

              The information that I make my opinions with are all presented by in my opinion the top Kinesiologist in the field and then tested physically by me and then my clients. At no time has he been incorrect in his discovery or the sports physiological principles that led him to them. There is science backing up every thing he teaches and tons of it.

              “not facts and I take it for what it is worth”
              Why don’t you be a lot more specific rather than make these blanket statements and we can proceed with specific detail so you can understand what has been presented

              “No $10 dictionary words either”
              When ever I say something that I don’t think a 16 cyo would understand I use parenthesis with a simpler explanation within them. I don’t actually know when to do this but think I have it covered for most, not wanting to treat people like they are lesser capable than anybody else I hold this back some. For you I will use more of this technique if you wish? But I promise I will not use words like “nut job” to describe anybody whether they are here to defend themselves or not.
              Primum non nocere

              Comment

              Ad Widget

              Collapse
              Working...
              X