Scoring question

[Mark R]

How should this be scored? Runner on first steals second, catcher overthrows and runner breaks towards third. Center fielder backs up and throws a one hop to third with runner still six feet away. Third baseman does not catch ball and runner is safe.
Thanks!

[scorekeeper]

How should this be scored? Runner on first steals second,

That’s a steal credited to the runner.

catcher overthrows and runner breaks towards third.

Now you have a situation where if the runners is safe at 3rd, the catcher’s gonna be popped with an error because the runner wouldn’t have moved if it weren’t for his bad throw.

Center fielder backs up and throws a one hop to third with runner still six feet away. Third baseman does not catch ball and runner is safe.

Really doesn’t matter, unless runner goes home. Scoring errors on throws intended to “catch” a runner trying to advance can get really complicated. In most cases, you really have to be there when the play happens because there’s really no other way to render a “judgment”.

But in this particular case, since as soon as the runner reaches 3rd safely, there’s already been an error assigned because of the 1st bad throw, there’s little more to consider. There are several cases in the rules that “forgive” fielders when runners are safe for dropping or making something less than a perfect throw. Its as also pretty much a slam dunk that if a throw touches the ground and then isn’t caught, the thrower’s gonna get popped. But mostly its not an automatic assumption that because a runners trying to advance would have been out had the throwing fielder made a perfect throw and the receiving fielder caught it, made the tag in tome to get the out, and held on to the ball.

Now if the throw from the F8 were perfect and in the air, and F5 was in position to catch it in time, but made a mechanical misplay allowing the runner to be safe, I “might” consider popping him as well, but that’s pretty rare.

[mudvnine]

SK, just so I'm clear.....

Even though F8 backed up the throw from F2, and (in the SKer's opinion) would have recorded the out at 3rd had F5 caught the ball.....the error is charged to F2 "because the runner wouldn’t have moved if it weren’t for his bad throw"?

I ask, because you stated that, "if the throw from the F8 were perfect and in the air", but failed to catch it, "[you] “might” consider popping him as well, but that’s pretty rare".....but nowhere in there did you elude to possibly giving F8 the throwing error.

The only reason I ask, is because in my mind when reading this, I would have given the error for the runner's advancement to 3rd to either F5 or F8, depending on the "quality" and "catchability" of the throw.....but I would not have given it to F2, because with F8 backing up the "initial play", and having plenty of time to make the out 3rd, I would have thought that to be a "subsequent" play.....
Sounds as though I would have been incorrect. Dang....:stupidme:

[scorekeeper]

SK, just so I'm clear.....

Even though F8 backed up the throw from F2, and (in the SKer's opinion) would have recorded the out at 3rd had F5 caught the ball.....the error is charged to F2 "because the runner wouldn’t have moved if it weren’t for his bad throw"?

That’s not what I said. There was nothing in what I said about the out being recorded at 3rd in anyone’s opinion.

Here’s what I said. “Now you have a situation where if the runners is safe at 3rd, the catcher’s gonna be popped with an error because the runner wouldn’t have moved if it weren’t for his bad throw.”

That’s true no matter if he could have been out at 3rd or not on subsequent play. IOW, if there was no bad throw from the catcher, there would have been no play at 3rd to judge. The rule doesn’t say the runner has to advance a base for there to be an error on the wild throw. It “prolonged the presence of the runner”.

(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

Subsequent play is judged on its own, which is what the throw from F8 was. And As I said, its not common, at least for me, to charge errors on throws or catches trying to get runners.

I ask, because you stated that, "if the throw from the F8 were perfect and in the air", but failed to catch it, "[you] “might” consider popping him as well, but that’s pretty rare".....but nowhere in there did you elude to possibly giving F8 the throwing error.

I didn’t allude to it because in my mind it was such an extremely remote possibility as soon as the throw touched the ground.

If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error.

Now it is possible for a great throw that touches the ground should have been caught, but think about it. You have a runner haulin’ a$$ tryin’ to get to 3rd after a crappy throw that ends up somewhere in short center. The angles are such that the throw will likely be very close to the runner, and that may well cause the fielder to lose sight of it or at least lose focus on it momentarily. Is that the fielder’s fault trying to receive the throw with a runner pounding down on? Or is it the fault of the throwing fielder, even though he did everything in his power to make the throw good. That’s why I said very early on that its so important to actually be there to see the play.

The only reason I ask, is because in my mind when reading this, I would have given the error for the runner's advancement to 3rd to either F5 or F8, depending on the "quality" and "catchability" of the throw.....but I would not have given it to F2, because with F8 backing up the "initial play", and having plenty of time to make the out 3rd, I would have thought that to be a "subsequent" play.....
Sounds as though I would have been incorrect. Dang....:stupidme:

Well, I won’t say that you’d have been wrong, but I will say that you and I certainly don’t understand the timing of the play or how it affects scoring the same way.

[Mark R]

Thanks!!!!