The long toss debate..question

[giantheart]

My son and I where throwing the ball around a few days ago. I figured it would be a good way to mix in a long toss drill.. I have been following the debates on long toss a while back when the wall street journal published an article and Dick Mills wrote some criticism in the comments. I am somewhat familiar with the Jaeger long toss program ( I have read all his free stuff) and have read many more things on the benefits...

But..... I got to say, as someone without a dog in the race, I am questioning it a bit...I don't think long toss is bad, but there may be more ways to skin this cat. Let me explain and maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can correct my logic here.

I think Jaeger says the real gains of long toss is the pull down phase, where you basically throw as hard as you did at your maximum distance and then start to toss to shorter distances. SO the whole drill starts at a set of throws from short distance, moves out to the max distance (in increments) for a set of throws, and then moves back in to the minimum distance with a set of throws.

The shorter distances at the beginning and end of the routine are supposed to simulate pitching mechanics better than the long distance crow hops. The pull down phase at the end of the routine is supposed to have the thrower use the force in which he threw to achieve the long distances applied to shorter distances. This lets the thrower throw harder at shorter distances and “extend his muscles”.

The issue I saw and noticed, with my son the other night, is that there is no guarantee the thrower will throw with the same force during the shorter pull down phase than at max distance. My son naturally threw less hard as we got closer together... He was not even sure how to throw harder at shorter distances because he had to change his arm angle as we moved closer together and farther apart.

Sure, simple physics says if you can throw farther, you can throw harder.... I buy that. But the arm angle is different, and I noticed my son had a hard time maintaining the same force while changing his arm angle. It would seem to me a better drill would be to have a three person drill where two people are spaced at max and min distance for the third person.

The subject (third person) would alternate throwing to the max distance and min distance to "muscle memorize" the throwing force for both distances and change the arm angle for each throw...I have not tried this yet!

Any thoughts? Am I teaching this wrong?

[dominik]

long tossing like any hard throwing (long or short) will build arm strength and thus increase velocity.

How old is he? I wouldn't do any max effort throwing program before a kid is at least ten.

[The Uncoach]

So you haven't actually paid for the Jaeger stuff, but from what you can piecemeal together from the free material, you have questions about his long toss program?

[JJA]

So you haven't actually paid for the Jaeger stuff, but from what you can piecemeal together from the free material, you have questions about his long toss program?

Uncoach is right. If you have questions, spend a bit of money and have Alan and/or his outstanding staff help you out. You absolutely should be throwing at max effort from close in, that's the whole point. I also wouldn't say that Jaeger thinks the most is gained from the pull down phase. It's an important phase, but if I would say that if anything the maximum distance phase is the most important. It's also critical to note that the maximum distance phase is NOT for a fixed number of throws, but basically for as long as it takes to get the arm fatigued, which can actually be for as long as 20 minutes or even longer depending on how in condition the arm is. I know that sounds crazy, but that's what he advocates and it really works.

[pcarnette]

How old is he? I wouldn't do any max effort throwing program before a kid is at least ten.

This is an excellent question. My son will be turning ten soon, and while he is getting better about throwing harder, he still isn't throwing max effort on every throw. So that should probably be one of the entry criteria before going down the road of an expensive, time-consuming throwing program (i.e. Are they not only physically mature enough but mentally disciplined enough to "take as directed" so-to-speak).

[giantheart]

So you haven't actually paid for the Jaeger stuff, but from what you can piecemeal together from the free material, you have questions about his long toss program?

No need to get snippy....I have purchased my fair share of material...it was curiosity...why is that so hard to understand... I have not paid for his program.....I have questions about his program, or any long toss program for that matter

... Is the real question you are trying to ask me: If I have so many questions, why don't I just pay for his program to get them all answered?

and I guess what i am trying to understand is : IF I DO PAY FOR HIS PROGRAM, WILL IT FUNDAMENTALLY ADDRESS THE QUESTION I AM ASKING?

That question is: Is throwing from max effort at short distances a natural by-product, or is it something that has to be learned? Just from my observation of just tossing the ball around, the thrower adjusts the force down at close in when the arm angle changes.

[giantheart]

FYI, there is a ton of material on long toss debate both from Yaeger, NPA, Bozone, wolforth, etc. and many others..it is not like I am scraping bits and pieces together. I have purchased some of it...I just never saw this question addressed...


Regarding my son's age..he is young...We were not doing any max effort long toss..it was purely an observation during catch with some mixed in drill work

...BTW Dr. Axe has a long toss trainign program for 9 yrs old and up correlated to statisitcal data on average throwing velocity. Max distance is like 120 feet.

[JJA]

No need to get snippy....I have purchased my fair share of material...it was curiosity...why is that so hard to understand... I have not paid for his program.....I have questions about his program, or any long toss program for that matter

... Is the real question you are trying to ask me: If I have so many questions, why don't I just pay for his program to get them all answered?

and I guess what i am trying to understand is : IF I DO PAY FOR HIS PROGRAM, WILL IT FUNDAMENTALLY ADDRESS THE QUESTION I AM ASKING?

That question is: Is throwing from max effort at short distances a natural by-product, or is it something that has to be learned? Just from my observation of just tossing the ball around, the thrower adjusts the force down at close in when the arm angle changes.

Yes to all of your questions. First, the correct pull down has to be learned. As you figured out, you have to change the arm angle at short range compared to long range in order not to throw the ball into the next county. That's the details of how to do the pull down. You don't pull down during the long toss portion of the phase, just when you get close in. They are two different motions.

You are supposed to throw at max effort at short range. I'm not sure I would call this a byproduct of the long toss, just more the way you're supposed to do the short range throws. Just channel the max effort throw at long toss into the short range throw using the pull down motion.

Hope that makes some sense.

-JJA

[JJA]

Duplicate post.....

[giantheart]

Thanks JJA,

It seemed like that was the only way it could work.... but if you have to teach a kid to throw at max effort at short distance,

how is this fundamentally different than just teaching a kid to throw from the mound without long toss... again, I am not saying long toss is bad, evil, yada yada,

but is there some kinimatic difference in the short throw to long throw to short throw that changes the way you work the muscles vs throwing off the mound or with a weighted ball?

I always hear/read about "lengthinging the arm" and simialr phrases but I am somewhat perlexed by it.

By "natural by product", I meant that the progression taught arm action through muscle memory..

Hey if the secret sauce is in Jaeger video material, just say so... I am not fishing for propritary information, but I would think many coahces have addressed this debate before

[JJA]

Thanks JJA,

It seemed like that was the only way it could work.... but if you have to teach a kid to throw at max effort at short distance,

how is this fundamentally different than just teaching a kid to throw from the mound without long toss... again, I am not saying long toss is bad, evil, yada yada,

but is there some kinimatic difference in the short throw to long throw to short throw that changes the way you work the muscles vs throwing off the mound or with a weighted ball?

I always hear/read about "lengthinging the arm" and simialr phrases but I am somewhat perlexed by it.

By "natural by product", I meant that the progression taught arm action through muscle memory..

Hey if the secret sauce is in Jaeger video material, just say so... I am not fishing for propritary information, but I would think many coahces have addressed this debate before

Jaeger has some good stuff even on Youtube that should answer your questions. We're not allowed to post external links, so I will send you some stuff on a PM that will hopefully answer most of your questions.

-JJA

[CircleChange11]

This is an excellent question. My son will be turning ten soon, and while he is getting better about throwing harder, he still isn't throwing max effort on every throw.

Learning to deliver max intensity is, IMO, an advanced concept. I would not expect a 10yo anything to be able to "dial it up" to max levels. In any endeavor to hit max intensity the mind has to make the body go where it doesn't want to go. Expecting a 10yo to be able to deliver that is bogus.

So that should probably be one of the entry criteria before going down the road of an expensive, time-consuming throwing program (i.e. Are they not only physically mature enough but mentally disciplined enough to "take as directed" so-to-speak).

Time-consuming throwing program?

It's no more time consuming than playing catch, it's just more structured.

Time consuming is not a phrase that one serious about sports should use, IMO. Time investment is more like it. Is the program worth the time-invested? Yes, but perhaps at a bit older age.

I'd rather see 10yo make "long toss" throws from the OF after catching a hit fly ball, just out "having fun". In other words, doing long toss without actually knowing it ... ifyaknowwhatimean.

I've already explained how my Legion coach got me to throw harder. No curveballs. Throw harder by well, throwing harder.

At 10yo, I'd be more concerned with excellent throwing mechanics, delivering consistency, etc.

[pcarnette]

Learning to deliver max intensity is, IMO, an advanced concept. I would not expect a 10yo anything to be able to "dial it up" to max levels. In any endeavor to hit max intensity the mind has to make the body go where it doesn't want to go. Expecting a 10yo to be able to deliver that is bogus.

Thanks. I'm glad you posted this because it is important to know when one's expectations are unreasonable. I always thought my son could throw harder than he was, but I think he is learning to reach his potential and throw harder more consistently, which sounds like what one should reasonably expect from a 10 year-old.

Time-consuming throwing program?

It's no more time consuming than playing catch, it's just more structured.

Time consuming is not a phrase that one serious about sports should use, IMO. Time investment is more like it. Is the program worth the time-invested? Yes, but perhaps at a bit older age.

I'd rather see 10yo make "long toss" throws from the OF after catching a hit fly ball, just out "having fun". In other words, doing long toss without actually knowing it ... ifyaknowwhatimean.

I've already explained how my Legion coach got me to throw harder. No curveballs. Throw harder by well, throwing harder.

At 10yo, I'd be more concerned with excellent throwing mechanics, delivering consistency, etc.

Your point is well taken, and I think my choice of words was poor. I said "time-consuming" when "complicated" would have probably been better. I think the long toss alternatives you listed are less complicated and more fun, both of which are key at this age.

[CircleChange11]

Thanks. I'm glad you posted this because it is important to know when one's expectations are unreasonable. I always thought my son could throw harder than he was, but I think he is learning to reach his potential and throw harder more consistently, which sounds like what one should reasonably expect from a 10 year-old.

Your point is well taken, and I think my choice of words was poor. I said "time-consuming" when "complicated" would have probably been better. I think the long toss alternatives you listed are less complicated and more fun, both of which are key at this age.

Complicated?

It's a structured way of just saying "okay scoot back some more" and "okay, let's work our way back in".

You start at a short distance and move back in increments. Then once you reach your max distance, you work your way back in. The program allows for flexibility depending on age, how you feel, etc. When my son is about 13 (post-puberty) we'll start doing this type of stuff on a football field.

At 10yo, IMO, the best "long toss" program is to throw the ball hard across the diamond 3B --> 1B with accuracy. In my view a 10yo kid could do this daily and for quite a few throws.

As one increases the distance, they decrease the number of throws (inverse relationship).

I would focus on mechanics. I'm just amazed at the age of 10 how many kids, pitchers included, do not throw with good mechanics.

[pstein]

My son and I where throwing the ball around a few days ago. I figured it would be a good way to mix in a long toss drill.. I have been following the debates on long toss a while back when the wall street journal published an article and Dick Mills wrote some criticism in the comments. I am somewhat familiar with the Jaeger long toss program ( I have read all his free stuff) and have read many more things on the benefits...

But..... I got to say, as someone without a dog in the race, I am questioning it a bit...I don't think long toss is bad, but there may be more ways to skin this cat. Let me explain and maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can correct my logic here.

I think Jaeger says the real gains of long toss is the pull down phase, where you basically throw as hard as you did at your maximum distance and then start to toss to shorter distances. SO the whole drill starts at a set of throws from short distance, moves out to the max distance (in increments) for a set of throws, and then moves back in to the minimum distance with a set of throws.

The shorter distances at the beginning and end of the routine are supposed to simulate pitching mechanics better than the long distance crow hops. The pull down phase at the end of the routine is supposed to have the thrower use the force in which he threw to achieve the long distances applied to shorter distances. This lets the thrower throw harder at shorter distances and “extend his muscles”.

The issue I saw and noticed, with my son the other night, is that there is no guarantee the thrower will throw with the same force during the shorter pull down phase than at max distance. My son naturally threw less hard as we got closer together... He was not even sure how to throw harder at shorter distances because he had to change his arm angle as we moved closer together and farther apart.

Sure, simple physics says if you can throw farther, you can throw harder.... I buy that. But the arm angle is different, and I noticed my son had a hard time maintaining the same force while changing his arm angle. It would seem to me a better drill would be to have a three person drill where two people are spaced at max and min distance for the third person.

The subject (third person) would alternate throwing to the max distance and min distance to "muscle memorize" the throwing force for both distances and change the arm angle for each throw...I have not tried this yet!

Any thoughts? Am I teaching this wrong?

I consider a long toss program to be a waste of time.

If you want to throw hard, practice throwing hard. Pretty simple, but what do I know?