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  • jdfromfla
    replied
    Looks like a Mexcian stand-off to me..Doc says the Orthos are idiots and the Orthos? Well they have no credence with Marshall so they are nothing more than opportunist bloodsuckers out to cut and shave bone on the insuspecting masses...surgery for no other reason than to make a buck (Why work..just say you shaved it and inject some saline for swelling right???).

    I personally cannot controvert Dr. Marshalls anatomical statements...nor do I personally think Orthos go and cut on folks "just for a buck" or "out of ignorance".....Whats a caring guy to do???????

    Leave a comment:


  • Dirtberry
    replied
    Jdfromfla.,

    “Please clarify this Dirt.
    Someone diagnoses it..pretty obviously, so are you saying that it cannot occur on a pitcher?”
    This is from several e-mails (loosely paraphrased) answered By Dr.marshall on this subject of which one of them critiqued and article by a Mr. Reinhold on Eric Cresseys pseudo scientific writings on shoulder impingement and another commenting on ASMI’s BS on the subject.
    If you have noticed every time this injury is diagnosed and not operated on the problem disappears with time off, well what happened to the impingement? Did it suddenly grow further apart? This injury is always a rotator cuff muscle or tendon injury.


    Dr.Mike Marshall---It is falsely believed that pitching shoulder impingement is when baseball pitchers raise their pitching upper arm so high that the underside of their acromial process impinges on the head of the Humerus bone where the Supraspinatus muscle attaches.

    Nothing in the pitching shoulder impinges with anything else in the pitching shoulder.
    Orthopedic surgeons use this bogus diagnosis to shave down the underside of the acromion process.

    To abduct (laterally raise) the Humerus bone, baseball pitchers only have their Middle Deltoid muscle. The Middle Deltoin muscle arises from the outer edge of the lateral aspect of the acromion process. Therefore, it is physically impossible for the Middle Deltoid muscle to laterally raise their Humerus bone higher than the bone from which it arises.

    Therefore, there is no such thing as pitching shoulder impingement.
    This means that orthopedic surgeons may be able to do surgery, but they are illiterate Applied Anatomists.

    As I have mentioned several times, in 1978, the orthopedic surgeon for the Minnesota Twins asked me to speak at a Sports Medicine Conference in Minneapolis that he was hosting.

    From my experiences with orthopedic surgeons where, in 1967, they destroyed careers by repeatedly injecting cortico-steroids into pitching arm with no regard for the research that cortico-steroids did not cure, but harmed I thought that orthopedic surgeons were more used car salesmen than scientists.

    In the 1968 spring, in a Growth and Development graduate course, the professor asked me to present research on body typing. As part of my doctoral dissertation, starting with Sheldon's ectomorph, mesomorph and endomorph somatotyping, I had fifty years of research articles.
    For two full hours, I chronologically went through every research article and explained how growth and development researches classified body types. When I finished, I asked whether anybody had any questions. They had none. Then, I said, from the hundreds of hours that I had spent collecting and analyzing this research, I decided that it all amounted to a huge pile of man-ur-ee.

    It took a few seconds, but my fellow graduate students soon realized that they had just spent two hours listening to nonsensical, meaningless research.

    Also, in the 1968 spring, before I joined the Minnesota Twins, I defended my doctoral dissertation. My doctoral committee professors grilled me over every aspect of my research. It was great fun.
    Therefore, to see how well orthopedic surgeons would question my speech, I decided to present a bogus presentation.
    Without any scientific research to support anything I claimed, I talked for an hour about how, when baseball pitchers raised their pitching upper arm above shoulder height, they rubbed the attachment of their Supraspinatus muscle against the underside of their acromion process. I freeze-framed high-speed film and said three and four syllable Kinesiological and anatomical words like shoulder impingement
    During my ten minute question session at the end of my presentation, not one orthopedic surgeon questioned the validity of my presentation. Therefore, instead of admitting that I had made this all up, I decided to wait and see what happens.
    Mr. Reinhold's article along with Eric Cressey complete BS is what happened.

    With MRIs, drawings and fancy double-talk gibberish, Mr. Reinhold speaks authoritatively about how baseball pitchers rub the attachment of their Supraspinatus muscle against the underside of their acromion process.

    What Mr. Reinhold does not understand is that humans do not have a muscle that can voluntarily raise the Humerus bone above a line parallel with the line across the top of their shoulders. Therefore, it is impossible for baseball pitchers to rub the head of the Humerus bone against the acromion process, whether it has a 'hook' or not.

    Imagine the hundreds of thousands of dollars that orthopedic surgeons have made needlessly scraping the underside of the acromion process.

    Major league baseball has to get orthopedic surgeons out of their training rooms. They have no idea what they are doing.

    Enjoy reading Mr. Reinhold's nonsensical, meaningless research.

    And, above all else, as Mr. Reinhold said, "Be sure to check out Eric Cressey and I’s 4 DVD package Optimal Shoulder Performance."

    01. If Dr. Fleisig looked at high-speed film of baseball pitchers, then he would see that, at no point in the acceleration phase of the baseball pitching motion can baseball pitchers raise their pitching upper arm above a line that is parallel with the line across the top of their shoulders. Then, if Dr. Fleisig would take an X-ray with the pitching shoulder and pitching upper arm in this position, then he would see that baseball pitchers cannot compress the shoulder bursa sack between the Humerus bone of their pitching upper arm against the underside of the acromion process of their pitching shoulder.

    With regard to trapping the attachments of the Infraspinatus, Teres Minor, Teres Major and/or Latissimus Dorsi muscles between the Humerus bone of their pitching upper arm and the Glenoid Fossa, even with the most severe 'Scapula Loading' and reverse rotation of their pitching upper arm behind their acromial line, I do not believe that baseball pitchers can trap these muscles between their Humerus bone and their Glenoid Fossa. I would like for Dr. Fleisig to produce an X-ray that shows this scenario.

    02. Glenohumeral Internal Rotation Deficit (GIRD) means that baseball pitchers are not able to inwardly rotate the bone of their pitching upper arm as far as they should.

    The ability of baseball pitchers to inwardly rotate their pitching upper arm has nothing to do with either imagined impingement. However, when orthopedic surgeons operate on the back of the pitching shoulders of baseball pitchers, such as to relieve 'internal impingement,' they actually decrease the ability of baseball pitchers to inwardly rotate their pitching upper arm.

    When baseball pitchers learn how to powerfully pronate their pitching forearm before, during and after release, they also learn how to use their Teres Major and Latissimus Dorsi muscles to inwardly rotate their pitching upper arm. This eliminates GIRD.
    Last edited by Dirtberry; 07-27-2012, 02:40 AM.

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  • jdfromfla
    replied
    This is a false diagnosis and always has been, there is never an impingement, you should here the story on how that got started 20 years ago. The bones involved can not move closer to each other.
    Please clarify this Dirt.

    Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.


    Someone diagnoses it..pretty obviously, so are you saying that it cannot occur on a pitcher?

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  • ralanprod
    replied
    Phillyinnj

    I think the coaches you have been dealing with see something they don't understand and instantly brand it as being "wrong". Ask them if changing to a 3/4 slot will increase valgus stress on your son's elbow? Let us know what they say.

    My son has worked at different points this off season with: a physical therapist who specializes in pediatric athletic injuries, a chiropractor who primarily deals with sports injury rehab, two different HS head coaches - one who coached on the Div 1 level - one who played up to AA ball, and a pitching coach who spent a few years in the MLB (and has gone through TJ surgery). Every one of them has given the opposite advice from what you have been given by your coaches.

    Let's put it this way - despite a couple of successful seasons, I'd much rather my son have mechanics similar to your son's, than the high 3/4 he currently uses.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dirtberry
    replied
    Phillyinnj,

    “Ok...here is the updated vid. Hopefully it is better than the previous ones.”
    Much better, the straight on view tells us a lot like; how well he supinates his arm on the way back (traditional coaches will try to change this, do not let them! This mechanic will protect his UCL by having his Humerus already 50 percent outwardly rotated eliminating destructive forearm bounce) with his thumb heading up, very very good but he is taking it back off the field driveline ( the imaginary line running from second to home through the pitchers plate) pretty far, have him bring it straight back towards second base so his arm and ball are hidden from both side batters, this will protect him against shoulder stress that loosens the Glenno Humeral ligaments, we want those tight to keep the humerus from rolling around in the cavity causing instability, loss of velocity and Labrum grind.
    One of the normal comments I hear all the time is the batters say the ball comes out of nowhere meaning they have lesser timing opportunities if they do not see the arm timing until the ball appears.
    Again have him stay tall and rotate!!!!

    “After watching it in slow mo, it doesn't seem like he is throwing over the top or too high”
    There is no “to high”, the closer he gets his Humerus to his ball side ear the better, now if you can get him to drive the ball forwards with a slightly bent elbow where the forearm has the ball over field driveline or the center of his mass axis of rotation, inside of vertical he could learn all pronated pitches that nobody else can perform in the same manor and evenly dispersed to rightist and leftist batters, in other words have a game against both.

    Leave a comment:


  • clayadams
    replied
    Nothing wrong with that arm slot at all IMO! I'd LOVE to know what injuries the camp instructor says he'd be preventing by changing to a "3/4 arm slot". LOL Dirtberry would definitely be able to say, but I think he's pretty close to a Marshall style throw using his lat vs pec. IMO this is a really good thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • phillyinnj
    replied
    Ok...here is the updated vid. Hopefully it is better than the previous ones. I've already discussed his landing after the pitch and explained that he will have to get the foot down without over rotating. After watching it in slow mo, it doesn't seem like he is throwing over the top or too high...

    Please let me know the improvements...





    Leave a comment:


  • Dirtberry
    replied
    Dominic,

    “All pitchers have the same slot”
    Define slot? There is no slot!! This is an indefinable yardspeak like most of it.
    It makes no sense because of the elbows articulation that is different with all pitchers.
    We do not use this ridiculous non-meaning term any ways. The position of the Humerus as it drives the ball and the rotational properties is what matters. The forearm needs to pronate in order to eliminate all theses injurious problems. If the humerus is low and the timing late (Humeral/forearm transition phase) it leads to intuitive supination.

    “just tilt their spine not just marshall pitchers”
    Nobody has said this, you are starting to sound like baseball love with his talking points that he repeats constantly.
    You did notice I mentioned Lincecum and Kirshaw and many many more, did you not?

    Jdfromfla,

    “If he's attempting to get his arm higher than his shoulder line”
    The Humerus can not rise higher than the line across the shoulders (acromial line).

    (As Dom eluded to..the arm, in delivery should not exceed the shoulder line..so the higher the slot, the higher the accompanying shoulder tilt for the "traditional" over-head throwing..non-Marshall, kid)
    Dr.Marshall taught pitchers have the same physiology that everybody else has. Dr.Marshall has said thousands of times exactly what Dominic said by what he has read over there.
    Dr.Marshall has never said others do not do this! This is the same dumb argument baseball love makes about pronation as if Dr.Marshall invented it, wake up! He is only calling out the mechanic, there is no argument here.

    “then the guy is attempting to adjust a fundamental that could lead to an inpingement circumstance”
    This is a false diagnosis and always has been, there is never an impingement, you should here the story on how that got started 20 years ago. The bones involved can not move closer to each other.

    “or he's an untrained eye who used a cliche because he "heard' something...your vid will show it”
    You have this exactly right JD.

    Phillyinnj,

    “He just turned 12 last month”
    You are giving his chronological age! More importantly, what is his Biological age?

    “looks like a high 3/4 slot to me...thoughts?”
    Again, define what this means to you “armslot”. It makes no sense to me and means something different to everybody.

    “My thoughts are that the video is too small and far away to see too much.”
    You are correct but you can see he has a very high arm drive vector, this is excellent!!
    By doing this you can even see he is involuntarily pronating his pitch also very good.
    He should learn what this action is and how to voluntarily pronate from the beginning of the acceleration phase all the way through the recovery phase and with every pitch he ever learns. You can have the ball move in both directions ( towards the glove arm side and to the ball arm side of home plate) by pronating your forearm. Pronation also promotes inwards rotation of the Humerus during drive that makes your Latissimus Dorsi the primary mover.

    Ask him to stay taller by not bending at the lower back (head and shoulder tilt is OK) and punch his ball arm leg through, this will allow him to finish by rotating 180 degrees so he is in the best defensive position. His ball arm foot should be down on the ground when the ball is contacted.

    Leave a comment:


  • clayadams
    replied
    Originally posted by phillyinnj View Post


    Sorry for the poor quality...my vid camera just broke and the 3GS vid quality isn't the best (still waiting for the vid from baseball camp as well)...60 foot mound

    He just turned 12 last month...looks like a high 3/4 slot to me...thoughts?
    My thoughts are that the video is too small and far away to see too much.

    Put the camera to his side and much closer to we can actually see his mechanics. If filming from the angle you did, zoom in.

    Leave a comment:


  • phillyinnj
    replied


    Sorry for the poor quality...my vid camera just broke and the 3GS vid quality isn't the best (still waiting for the vid from baseball camp as well)...60 foot mound

    He just turned 12 last month...looks like a high 3/4 slot to me...thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • jdfromfla
    replied
    I will send video once I get it from the camp (pitching analysis vid)
    It is a tough call, the guy was there..I don't blame you for continuing to ask about it and try to understand the comment anyway..by all means never stop trying to understand. If he's attempting to get his arm higher than his shoulder line (As Dom eluded to..the arm, in delivery should not exceed the shoulder line..so the higher the slot, the higher the accompanying shoulder tilt for the "traditional" over-head throwing..non-Marshall, kid)..then the guy is attempting to adjust a fundemental that could lead to an inpingement circumstance..or he's an untrained eye who used a cliche because he "heard' something...your vid will show it very quickly.

    Leave a comment:


  • dominik
    replied
    Originally posted by Baseball gLove View Post
    Marshall's pitchers all have a 3/4 arm slot. They just tilt their spine.

    All pitchers have the same slot and just tilt their spine not just marshall pitchers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baseball gLove
    replied
    Marshall's pitchers all have a 3/4 arm slot. They just tilt their spine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dirtberry
    replied
    phillyinnj,

    “My son (just turned 12)”
    More importantly is your son’s biological age. This assessment will guide you in making training and competitive use decisions that are yours alone, not any coaches.

    “just told by a baseball camp instructor that"
    Knowing the instructors credentials or the credentials of the person that gave him this false information would give you a better understanding of the “yardmyth” that is constantly passed around the baseball world.

    Seek out competently credentialed Kinesiologists, exercise physiologists and motor skill professionals to make decisions concerning how injuries are caused. If an x-high level player now coach makes a blanket statement about the known injurious traditional pitching motion question it by asking him for details concerning his short statement like why and what muscles bones ligaments and tendons are involved for him to make the statement, you will find out none of them knows what they are talking about let alone have the answers that will keep your child from harm.

    “he needs to stop throwing "over the top" and instead should throw from a 3/4 slot to prevent future injury.”
    He actually needs to throw over the top even more than he is currently so he can attain ball drive down his acromial line (the line that runs through the acromial tips of his shoulders at foot strike then 180 degree finish ) that will match the field driveline ( the line that runs through the pitchers plate from second base to home plate) at finish recovery.
    This will allow him to pronate ( thumb driving forwards then down by the forearm) all his pitches (elbow safety) more efficiently and allow him to not grind the Humeral head across the glenoid fossa like a mortar and pestle that you get with ¾ arm vector.

    “ I will send video once I get it from the camp (pitching analysis vid)”
    Hopefully this will be at least 240 frames a second from directly in front, back and 90 degrees perpendicular to the field driveline from both sides?

    “from what I can see is that he might have a high 3/4,”
    To bad ! He is like all others performing the traditional injurious mechanic that makes him deliver with a centripetal ( arm centrifuging away from the bodies center of mass axis of rotation) mechanic that intuitively has him supinate (thumb back and up during drive and finish) most of his throws and pitches.

    “but it's not over the top”
    It should be just like Lincecum Kershaw plus many more and gaining in use at every level as time goes by.

    “My question is does it matter?”
    It matters a great deal!!!!!!!!!!!! The lower he takes it the more injurious it becomes.

    “Is 3/4 less prone to injury than another type of arm slot?”
    Absolutely, and at every point along the way!
    This injurious mechanic has many kinetic disruptions that make it inefficient also.

    If you have any questions ask here or just go to the free web site of DrMikeMarshall.com for the real answers that will actually protect your child. You can take some or all of the information depending how much you care about your child or how much you fear the baseball community.
    Last edited by Dirtberry; 07-21-2012, 07:43 PM.

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  • HeinekenMan
    replied
    I'm not an expert. My understanding is that over-the-top pitchers have more stress placed on the shoulder. Guys who throw three-quarters have more stress placed on the elbow. The shoulder is a major body part. It's like the hip of the upper torso. Whereas, the elbow is more like the knee. Obviously, it would be great if pitchers didn't have any serious injuries to their throwing arms. But it happens. A lot. So I think the person is trying to suggest that your son change his delivery to eliminate, or greatly reduce, the chance of him suffering a serious shoulder injury. But, ultimately, it's up to you. Nobody should force something if a kid is having success with what he's doing.

    Leave a comment:

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