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Why do hitters step in the bucket/pull off the ball?

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  • CircleChange11
    replied
    Originally posted by pstein View Post
    We believe the same thing (wrt to the scap), but we describe it in different ways. I don't think about my elbow at all when I retract it. I think "pull back like a bow". It works for me.
    I used that same phrase today ... I'm not sure why, my son has never used a bow and arrow. *grin*

    We've also used the "throwing a punch" illustration, where if you want to punch with max force, you pull back.

    I used the elbow as an indicator because my son doesn't get the shoulder/scap descriptions.

    When we look at Miggy Cabrera clips, he can see his elbow coming "up" from the side view, and he can see it going "back" (toward 3B dugout) in straight on views.

    At this point, whatever terminology works is fine by me, as long as the scap loads and the rear elbow goes toward the hip.

    In drills, we use an exaggerated type of pullback to accentuate the move. In reality and in the game, the pullback is less due to the decreased time available. There are some hitters, like say david Wright and Ryan Howard that have serious pullback.

    Adrian Gonzales pulls back to such a degree that you can read both jersey numbers and his last name from the front view.

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  • pstein
    replied
    Originally posted by azmatsfan View Post
    That's the problem when people don't use the correct anatomical language. But I have to agree that the back elbow slotting correctly is vital to getting the barrel on plane the correct way. You see a lot of hitters who supinate the top hand to get the barrel on plane. This leads to bat drag and loss of power.
    It's the general issue with talking about hitting. When Bonds says "the shortest path to the ball is straight down", I understand what he's trying to say. Someone else will come along and say "it isn't straight down, it's a circular hand path with a slight upswing". The person who says "it's a CHP and a slight upswing" is correct, at least in theory. There's a difference between feel and reality, which makes talking about hitting difficult if you aren't using the same terms.

    Another example: If you talk to Nyman about "bat lag", he'll say it's awful. If you talk to Epstein, he'll say it's fine.

    Some day, someone needs to come up with a dictionary for hitting. Maybe I will.

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  • pstein
    replied
    Originally posted by CircleChange11 View Post
    That's EXACTLY what I was going to say. The back elbow has been our focus. It goes "up-back-down", or specifically "toward the backstop", toward the 3B dugout, then toward the hip. The same could be said with the emphasis on the rear shoulder, instead of the elbow.

    Up and Back results in the stretch (as front foot is striding toward pitcher), when the elbow moves toward the hip, the front elbow raises and the hands turn.

    The best MLB example of this, IMO, is Miguel Cabrera, Some like Ryan Howard take a "diagonal" approach to the up and back, but really it's such a continuous movement that up-back-to hip should be viewed as one movement.

    Obviously the elbow doesn;t do any "pulling", that it is the scap that "pulls back", but the force is felt in the top hand as the "hook" on the bat. The elbow is just an easy point for batters to focus on. For me the shoulder is the key, because not all batters (Jeff Kent) have a raised rear elbow, yet still result in an extremely effective swing. But, in my experience, youth batters don;t understand the shoulder movement as well as the elbow movement.
    We believe the same thing (wrt to the scap), but we describe it in different ways. I don't think about my elbow at all when I retract it. I think "pull back like a bow". It works for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • CircleChange11
    replied
    Originally posted by songtitle View Post
    Exactly right.


    Exactly backwards. The back elbow is one of the keys to the swing. The hands do little except stay back and hang on. IMO, of course.

    / hey, 0.500 is not bad :o
    That's EXACTLY what I was going to say. The back elbow has been our focus. It goes "up-back-down", or specifically "toward the backstop", toward the 3B dugout, then toward the hip. The same could be said with the emphasis on the rear shoulder, instead of the elbow.

    Up and Back results in the stretch (as front foot is striding toward pitcher), when the elbow moves toward the hip, the front elbow raises and the hands turn.

    The best MLB example of this, IMO, is Miguel Cabrera, Some like Ryan Howard take a "diagonal" approach to the up and back, but really it's such a continuous movement that up-back-to hip should be viewed as one movement.

    Obviously the elbow doesn;t do any "pulling", that it is the scap that "pulls back", but the force is felt in the top hand as the "hook" on the bat. The elbow is just an easy point for batters to focus on. For me the shoulder is the key, because not all batters (Jeff Kent) have a raised rear elbow, yet still result in an extremely effective swing. But, in my experience, youth batters don;t understand the shoulder movement as well as the elbow movement.

    Leave a comment:


  • azmatsfan
    replied
    In regards to the OP, most young hitters step in the bucket in fear of getting hit, or in some cases they might be trying to open up their hips. You can't step in the bucket consistently and have an efficient swing. It's a habit that needs to be addressed.

    Leave a comment:


  • azmatsfan
    replied
    Originally posted by pstein View Post
    I completely disagree. There isn't time for the back elbow to do its thing. 0.4 seconds is a very short time. You need to have a swing that feels like "one move", IMO.

    I assume when you say "hands", you mean anatomical hands (phalanges). I used the word "hands" in the baseball sense (hands, wrists, forearms).
    That's the problem when people don't use the correct anatomical language. But I have to agree that the back elbow slotting correctly is vital to getting the barrel on plane the correct way. You see a lot of hitters who supinate the top hand to get the barrel on plane. This leads to bat drag and loss of power.

    Leave a comment:


  • pstein
    replied
    Originally posted by songtitle View Post
    Exactly right.
    The back elbow is one of the keys to the swing. The hands do little except stay back and hang on. IMO, of course.
    I completely disagree. There isn't time for the back elbow to do its thing. 0.4 seconds is a very short time. You need to have a swing that feels like "one move", IMO.

    I assume when you say "hands", you mean anatomical hands (phalanges). I used the word "hands" in the baseball sense (hands, wrists, forearms).

    Leave a comment:


  • songtitle
    replied
    Originally posted by pstein View Post
    Typically, however, if you coil correctly, you won't step in the bucket.
    Exactly right.

    Do not focus on the back elbow. It does what it should do, if the hands are working properly.
    Exactly backwards. The back elbow is one of the keys to the swing. The hands do little except stay back and hang on. IMO, of course.

    / hey, 0.500 is not bad :o
    Last edited by songtitle; 07-28-2012, 08:04 AM.

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  • pstein
    replied
    Originally posted by LousivilleSlugger View Post
    Is it even possible to pull off the ball if you stride/coil correctly?

    Sometimes my head comes off the ball and I'm looking where I want the ball to go rather than having my head down on the ball. Could this be a matter of me swinging too early?

    I had asked this in a previous thread and someone suggested driving my back shoulder down. Would this suggest I concentrate on slotting the back elbow to correct things?
    Some great hitters ''stepped in the bucket". As long as you keep the shoulders closed and hands back and let the lower body open up, there's no horrific issue with "stepping in the bucket".

    Typically, however, if you coil correctly, you won't step in the bucket.

    Do not focus on the back elbow. It does what it should do, if the hands are working properly.

    Leave a comment:


  • dominik
    replied
    Fear of the ball.

    Leave a comment:


  • Why do hitters step in the bucket/pull off the ball?

    Is it even possible to pull off the ball if you stride/coil correctly?

    Sometimes my head comes off the ball and I'm looking where I want the ball to go rather than having my head down on the ball. Could this be a matter of me swinging too early?

    I had asked this in a previous thread and someone suggested driving my back shoulder down. Would this suggest I concentrate on slotting the back elbow to correct things?

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