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  • Tournament Pitching Management

    In a little more than three weeks, my 10U travel team will play its first tournament. I've been thinking about how to manage the pitching staff. We have a 10-player roster right now. Eight kids are pitchers. Two are in the development phase but will need a few months.

    As most of you know, the TB circuit usually requires two games per day for two days. I've been thinking about how we'll cover all of those innings. My first priority is protecting kids' arms from overuse/abuse. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that none of these kids play rec ball.

    I've read about coaches who simply throw each of their top 5-6 kids for approximately 20 pitches. But that would require having each kid throw 40 pitches per day for two straight days. That is going to ruin some kid's arm.

    So, I decided that the best approach is to have my top four guys start the four tournament games. My idea is to have my top two start the bracket games on Sunday. I'm looking to get 4 innings out of each of them. That puts them well over 50 pitches. This is over the ASMI recommendations but within the limits of most youth leagues.

    I plan to have four other guys throw one inning per day. Two will throw in the first game and two will throw in the second game. If one of my starters can't make it four innings, I'll have to use one of my two developing pitchers for an inning here and there. And, if necessary, I have a few reserves on the roster who can come out on Sunday if we run into a pitching bind.

    Do you think this is a good way to approach it?

    Now, as for the rec ball factor, I recognize that this is a serious concern. If you go only by the mandatory rest rules for Little League, none of the four starters would be able to pitch rec ball games for 3-4 days. Plus, I have to factor in their pitch counts and rest periods for the days prior to the tournament. If a kid throws 50 pitches on Thursday, he would be able to start on Sunday. If he threw more than that, he would not be able to pitch in the tournament. If a kid throws 50 on Wednesday, he could pitch on Saturday but would not be available until Sunday if he goes over 50 on Wednesday.

    We're only going to play a few tournaments during the fall ball rec season. So it shouldn't be a major factor. But it's something I want to monitor. Another concern is that some kids will lie to me, and their parents will not correct them. How often does that go on? Obviously, they're paying to watch their kids pitch. But I can't let those kids get hurt just because mom and dad are willing to risk their health.

  • #2
    IMO that's a small roster for a tournament. Especially at 10U. I generally see teams carrying around 13 or so.

    Remember at this age, things can go sideways quickly. The kids you think can go 4 don't get out of the 1st, etc. Because they are... 10 and sh*t happens.

    Talk to the parents, let them know your intentions and be perfectly clear that they need to communicate with you about their kids pitching in other games, etc.

    Make it easy on yourself, just mercy the first few teams you play so you can save your pitching .

    Comment


    • #3
      LOL. I never thought of mercy-ruling the other teams! That's what I'll do. Problem solved!

      Yes, it is a small roster. My goal was to have 12 kids per tournament plus a few extras. I may be there by the time the tournament starts in three weeks, but I'm only at 10 with a few part-timers right now. Keep in mind that I just started to put this team together three weeks ago. I'm still recruiting a few kids. But I have to tread carefully. I have a fall rec team in a new league, and I don't want to cross any lines. So I'm hoping word of mouth will land me a few good players.

      It seems like talking to parents is the best way to ensure that they are understanding of what I plan to do and how they can help.

      Comment


      • #4
        We always went 20-25 pitches max 1st day from anyone and everyone... I would throw EVERYONE, btw... Guys you think may be good, may not be, and guys you think can't, actually may be able to... It's 10u, have fun, don't get too stressed...

        After you get through that, you can reassess...

        Your 'plans' will rarely, if ever, work out... It's constant adjustment.
        I don't like my balls to smell like pickles.

        Comment


        • #5
          First off, I'm a noob about this kind of stuff.

          I think your plan looks pretty solid, but I think your biggest assumption is:

          Originally posted by HeinekenMan View Post
          I'm looking to get 4 innings out of each of them. That puts them well over 50 pitches.
          50 pitches in four innings is pretty decent for MLB pitchers who are sailing along fairly smoothly with an MLB-level defense behind them. Even if you could strike out every batter, that would be 36 pitches minimum.

          When kids start walking and hitting batters -- not to mention giving up legitimate hits -- and a snoozing defense starts committing errors, the pitch count could get ASMI critical in a couple of innings.

          Comment


          • #6
            BB,

            Thanks. It does seem like the manager needs to adjust on the fly. FWIW, I watched most of the LL state tournament games and saw how difficult it can be to make decisions with pitchers. In one semifinal, Windermere and Fort Myers were in a dogfight. Windermere had to bring in a relief pitcher, and they chose one of their top kids. He had to throw 21 pitches to get through 1.1 innings. And that gamble cost the team his availability in the championship game. I think he was supposed to be the starter. Fort Myers had the more dominant starting pitcher, but he hit his innings limit. The Fort Myers coach elected to throw a junk baller with a weak arm. He allowed some base-runners, and the manager had to switch to their ace, who was rocked for a homer by Windermere's best hitter.

            I also noticed that what you said is true: you don't really know who your best guy is. In league and district games, the all-star pitchers are typically accustomed to striking out most batters. And you don't really get a feel for which guy is harder to hit until you get into sectional and state games.

            I expect to have lots of fun. Incidentally, someone said my son's former team went from 8U straight to 10U. If that's the case, we might play them in a few weeks. It will be awkward.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bbrages View Post
              First off, I'm a noob about this kind of stuff.

              I think your plan looks pretty solid, but I think your biggest assumption is:



              50 pitches in four innings is pretty decent for MLB pitchers who are sailing along fairly smoothly with an MLB-level defense behind them. Even if you could strike out every batter, that would be 36 pitches minimum.

              When kids start walking and hitting batters -- not to mention giving up legitimate hits -- and a snoozing defense starts committing errors, the pitch count could get ASMI critical in a couple of innings.
              Believe me, I know this. I was a kid-pitch newbie this spring, and we had only two weeks before the start of the spring season. I had three kids who looked great in the pen. They went all jittery when the season started and had tons of trouble throwing strikes. One guy was terribly inconsistent with his mechanics. Another kid had the worst composure of any youth player I've ever seen. He would get discouraged after a few walks or a few hard-hit balls, and he'd just shut down. You couldn't talk to him. It was weird. His dad gave me lots of grief during the season. I suspect that the kid's attitude and his dad's attitude are somehow tied together. Both of those kids could throw 30 pitches an inning, and there was a 5-run rule.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by HeinekenMan View Post
                Obviously, they're paying to watch their kids pitch. But I can't let those kids get hurt just because mom and dad are willing to risk their health.
                Don't take the presumption that they are paying to watch their kid pitch. They are paying for development and the chance to pitch if they want to. As someone who is learning also and made mistakes last year at 10u (two pitchers carrying 50% of the workload) Id offer this advice:

                1. Fall ball is development not winning. You need to teach practice and play kids at multiple positions and see what you have depth wise. Since you are only carrying ten defensive versatility is a must to be able to pitch your entire staff with confidence when you set your lineups. We were not as versatile last year as we needed to be...make sure you have three catchers.

                2. Saturday pool doesn't matter. Pitch backwards as best you can. So if you have eight pitchers..plan to give everyone an inning of work on Saturday and try to win with the bats and defense. If you start with your number eight pitcher and he has a clean inning and under twenty pitch count..leave him for one more..etc. If it is a close pool game and a kid gets in trouble bring in a 1-4 for an inning and see if you can win.

                3. In bracket pool it depends on who you are playing..where you are seeded..it helps to have knowledge of the teams in the tourney. You may need to throw your best first game if you face a superior team or at least have him ready to stop some bleeding. In general save your pitching for Sunday then don't hold back..play to win that game and advance. The common saying is the tournament doesn't start until Sunday. You will see teams pitch seven different kids on Saturday and still win...those are the best teams.

                4. The pitching rotation should be fluid not static through the course of the year. Install gamechanger or some other web based scoring which has stats like strike %; first pitch strike %; whip..innings pitched etc. Then you can make subjective decisions. Even out the load best you can and resist throwing studs every game...mound time is given for anyone..but earned for Sunday.

                Comment


                • #9
                  To quote Mike Tyson; "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." That to me sums up pitching plans and strategies at that age.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AdamInNY View Post
                    To quote Mike Tyson; "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." That to me sums up pitching plans and strategies at that age.
                    Yes...its much easier if the team is good defensively..hit them hundreds and hundreds of ground balls and fly balls in practice..single biggest thing you can do..most games are lost not won at that age. Make the routine play and you win. Drill the heck out of them. Make it fun..play for bubblegum when taking grounders with good technique. Sometimes plans go awry when a youth pitcher gets rattled because of poor defense. But if you stick to a pitching plan of pitching backwards till bracket play you will not run out of pitching.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AdamInNY View Post
                      To quote Mike Tyson; "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." That to me sums up pitching plans and strategies at that age.
                      Yep, Perfect!! LOL!
                      I don't like my balls to smell like pickles.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We played 10u this past season. We had 11 kids on our roster, but we generally only had 10 players due to a couple of injuries. We had a few tournaments where we pitched everyone one inning on Saturday. This can work out really well if you structure your rotation based on velocity. A typical Saturday would be our #1 velocity guy, followed by our slowest guy, followed by #3 velocity, lefty, closer or worst pitcher depending on score. We were able to keep a lot of teams off balance and we developed a pitcher that went from our #8 or 9 guy to one of our top 3 by the end of the season. On Sunday we rolled out our best guys.

                        Our other strategy, the one that I prefer, is to pitch off on Saturday. I like that kids have a role and they understand exactly what their role is. These two guys are Saturday starters, these two guys are Saturday relievers. If we get in a tight game and we need to win so that we can get a bye, we bring one of our top guys in for one inning. Then on Sunday, everyone knows who is starting game 1, game 2, and game 3. Of course, everything is subject to change.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Save your best pitchers for elimination play as long as you don't put yourself in a bad slot with a poor pool play record. If there's a bye involved shoot for it. If you know you're playign a poor team use your lowest ranked pitchers. Outslug them. Don't leave your best pitchers for the championship game. It's a great way to give those pitchers two weeks rest.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by d-mac View Post
                            We played 10u this past season. We had 11 kids on our roster, but we generally only had 10 players due to a couple of injuries. We had a few tournaments where we pitched everyone one inning on Saturday. This can work out really well if you structure your rotation based on velocity. A typical Saturday would be our #1 velocity guy, followed by our slowest guy, followed by #3 velocity, lefty, closer or worst pitcher depending on score. We were able to keep a lot of teams off balance and we developed a pitcher that went from our #8 or 9 guy to one of our top 3 by the end of the season. On Sunday we rolled out our best guys.
                            Our other strategy, the one that I prefer, is to pitch off on Saturday. I like that kids have a role and they understand exactly what their role is. These two guys are Saturday starters, these two guys are Saturday relievers. If we get in a tight game and we need to win so that we can get a bye, we bring one of our top guys in for one inning. Then on Sunday, everyone knows who is starting game 1, game 2, and game 3. Of course, everything is subject to change.
                            Yep..it helps to keep an eye on other matchups if there is bye involved...the potential for playing two or three on Sunday vs three or four in the heat back to back is big. Plus if its a small tournament with a few dominant teams you want to ensure you get a better seed than if its say a SNIT type big tourney where everyone is good. Then you save your pitching because no matter who you play in bracket is going to be good.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm very against preteen tournaments where teams play more than two games in a day. I wasn't a big fan of it in 13-16U USSSA ball. When my son started playing showcase ball they never played more than two in a day. If two is enough for college prospects, college and pro players why is it good for little kids to play three or four in a day?

                              Comment

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