The illusion of hip/shoulder separation!!!

[Dirtberry]

When traditional leg lift pitchers over early rotate past the field driveline (the imaginary line running from second to home straight through the pitchers plate) they flex muscles in their backs to cause Separation between their hip and shoulders then the core rotational muscles that are lengthened by their antagonist muscles are what is separated. They take the acromial line (line that runs across the tips of the shoulders) away from the acetabular line (the line that runs across from hip joint to hip joint) that realign back to parallel with each other late in the Humeral/forearm transition phase long before the forwards acceleration phase starts.

This mechanical action is actually unnecessary to perform the Humeral/forearm transition phase that it is produced during it and leads to over early rotation and separation with the line of the shoulders and the Humerus that is a gateway mechanic to forearm flyout and most the injuries associated with the ball side shoulder and elbow. This mechanical action adds no velocity to a pitch that many preach in that it is performed then contracted back long before the acceleration phase starts where all velocity is developed from that postural set with the traditional pitching motion.

Since the believers in Hip/shoulder separation use Tim Lincecum as their poster child for this mechanical belief, lets use him as our model, although you can get this information off of any high speed video of any traditional leg lift crotch splits driver that has been stopped at the key points of each phase’s finish and the next’s phase start.

If you will notice here with lincecum he has almost no hip rotation during the start of the acceleration phase at frame 130 and all previously attained hip/shoulder separation were contracted and lost during the previous Humeral/forearm transition phase during frames 88 to 130. You can not start forwards ball movement until the Humerus is fully outwardly rotated (external shoulder rotation).You will also notice that the traditional leg drive motion has little hip shoulder rotation during the acceleration contractions and the shoulders actually get ahead of the hips half way through the acceleration phase.

Eye opening isn’t it?

[bbrages]

IMO, the separation is really a way to get a good rotational acceleration of the shoulders. The separation occurs before the forearm acceleration because the kinetic energy is flowing up from the lower body into the arm. Like cracking a whip...

[azmatsfan]

IMO, the separation is really a way to get a good rotational acceleration of the shoulders. The separation occurs before the forearm acceleration because the kinetic energy is flowing up from the lower body into the arm. Like cracking a whip...

Exactly. The hips must stop rotating before the shoulders stop rotating, which must stop rotating before the arm finishes rotating. This hip/shoulder separation is vital to attaining the whip effect and maximum acceleration.

[Dirtberry]

BBrages,

Thanks for adding in here.

“IMO, the separation is really a way to get a good rotational acceleration of the shoulders”

So, look at the video, the ball is moving towards second base during this time and the separation has been now aligned up during this phase. When the shoulders rotation helps the hips and shoulders have now aligned.
On an acceleration graph the math says forwards acceleration starts at frame 130. The math does not lie. Any movement backwards or sideways does not add up in physics.
Remember humans are not in a vacuum or have a friction free bearing and do have antagonist muscles to lengthen with every contraction of the agonist muscle.

“The separation occurs before the forearm acceleration because the kinetic energy is flowing up from the lower body into the arm.”

Look at it, it is used to transition the Humerus and forearm so the hand can be under and in back of the ball to the start forwards movement.

“Like cracking a whip...”

A cracked whip has one motor at the beginning and only works because of tapering of the whip, not even close to the same thing.
Humans have motors all along the way and if you are contracting muscles to redirect wrong headed load it detracts efficiency.

[Dirtberry]

azmatsfan

“The hips must stop rotating before the shoulders stop rotating”

Not saying the hips stop rotating, they actually rotate a little more just with the shoulders in alignment with them and during the actual forwards acceleration phase.

“ which must stop rotating before the arm finishes rotating”

Again, not saying the shoulders stop rotating, they actually rotate a little more but with the hips at the forwards acceleration phase.

“This hip/shoulder separation is vital to attaining the whip effect and maximum acceleration.”

Hip shoulder separation is not vital at all as witnessed by many MLB pitchers in the mid 9’s who do not display it.
In fact you can get into a lengthier contractive postural linear start without it, Newton likes this.

This is why traditional pitchers loose this mechanical position to alignment at the critical point

[azmatsfan]

azmatsfan



Not saying the hips stop rotating, they actually rotate a little more just with the shoulders in alignment with them and during the actual forwards acceleration phase.



Again, not saying the shoulders stop rotating, they actually rotate a little more but with the hips at the forwards acceleration phase.


Hip shoulder separation is not vital at all as witnessed by many MLB pitchers in the mid 9’s who do not display it.
In fact you can get into a lengthier contractive postural linear start without it, Newton likes this.

This is why traditional pitchers loose this mechanical position to alignment at the critical point

The hips and shoulders need to decelerate to transfer the energy from the core to the ball. The point of separation is to lose it during the motion. You seem to be saying that because the stretch has contracted before the arm comes forward that it's not necessary. I'm saying it's a vital to maximize acceleration of the arm.

[Baseball gLove]

What is eye opening is how you miss the little extra acceleration that comes up from the ground as the glove-side leg straightens. A lot of PSI being transferred up through the hip and the serape muscles. The same muscles your guys use when you are training the wrong foot throws but Marshall does not want you guys taking advantage of one of Newton's Laws which would add a little extra humph to your velocity and Tyler Matzek is using it.

[Dirtberry]

Azmatsfan,

The hips and shoulders need to decelerate to transfer the energy from the core to the ball.

The core at this point at the start of the acceleration phase is almost fully turned forwards already and the ball is traveling sideways, this lack of rotation during forwards drive only lets you attain about 10 degrees of rotation during the acceleration phase but some forwards angulations is an addition to velocity but not much.

The hips and shoulder if allowed to rotate further (not decelerate) would add significantly to velocity but can not because traditional pitchers leave their ball arm leg anchored back and the pop up long after release of the ball.

This best done by staying tall and striding shorter, allowing the ball arm leg to punch through the same way crow stepping fielders throw.

“The point of separation is to lose it during the motion”

The point of separation has been grossly misunderstood by all but along comes high speed video for the masses.
These mechanical properties were discovered 40 years ago using high speed 35 MM film at 500 frames using the first strobe video technology. Really nothing new but who likes to learn this stuff from scientists with credentials?

“You seem to be saying that because the stretch”

Lets use proper terms from the fields science, this would be lengthening! When you stretch muscle, tendon and ligament tissues past their elastic point range of motion they micro tear and grade tear.

“has contracted before the arm comes forward that it's not necessary”

Right because it is only a postural set to turn over the Humerus and forearm, look at the video closely and you will see it but you may not admit what you are actually seeing as does most.

You can attain even lengthier postural set by pendulum swinging down then back then up with the arm straight back and on the driveline with the hips and shoulders there also supinating on the way back so you can attain outwards Humeral rotation much earlier.
This eliminates UCl over stress from bounce and shoulder stress by not having the Humerus get out of line from start to finish to recovery. It has been found that all MLB pitchers who attain these over early rotation end up with a loose shoulder capsule the downward spiral to oblivion.

You might want to try and understand these principles?

“I'm saying it's a vital to maximize acceleration of the arm.”

Carl Sagan said this about scientific discovery “You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

Since you have created your belief system on non credentialed people who make blanket statements without detailed explanations this is normal. It’s where baseball is at.

[Dirtberry]

Baseball love,

“What is eye opening is how you miss the little extra acceleration that comes up from the ground as the glove-side leg straightens”

As you have miss-diagnosed this mechanic that some produce and some do not (Seaver-topped 98 MPH, Nomo and many many more high velo athletes) it is no wonder your belief system has gotten even this wrong.
The only way this mechanic can add any thing is the contraction of muscles not the earth and this can only happen if the bodies center of mass gets slightly or lengthier more ahead of this leg.

“A lot of PSI being transferred up through the hip and the serape muscles”

This is the angulations I mentioned! You missed it, go back and read again and you will catch it or commit another error.

“The same muscles your guys use when you are training the wrong foot throws”

With wrong foot throw the bodies mass is ahead of this leg and the reason we do it.
Now this mechanic actually uses slight separation and every kid and especially outfielders should be maximally long linear tossing this way, I have had incredible results since we incorporated it, thanx for mentioning this Love!!!!!

“Marshall does not want you guys taking advantage of one of Newton's Laws which would add a little extra humph to your velocity”

Dr.Marshall ironically is the first and still only one who talks about and tries to employ Newtons principles!

“Tyler Matzek is using it”

No !!!! Tyler uses the inferior leg lift traditional mechanic and the longer he works with his developers the worse it will become, you should see what the new developers have done to him now because they are unaware of his history or are incapable of improving what he was doing in HS and before but this thread is about “The allusion of Hip/shoulder separation not your fantasies and agenda’s.

Thanx for chymming in Love you are a valuable member of the opposition and deserve all that you will receive?

[azmatsfan]

Azmatsfan,



The core at this point at the start of the acceleration phase is almost fully turned forwards already and the ball is traveling sideways, this lack of rotation during forwards drive only lets you attain about 10 degrees of rotation during the acceleration phase but some forwards angulations is an addition to velocity but not much.

The hips and shoulder if allowed to rotate further (not decelerate) would add significantly to velocity but can not because traditional pitchers leave their ball arm leg anchored back and the pop up long after release of the ball.

This demonstrates to me that although you know the scientific language for biomechanic movements, you don't understand the physics at all.

This best done by staying tall and striding shorter, allowing the ball arm leg to punch through the same way crow stepping fielders throw.


The point of separation has been grossly misunderstood by all but along comes high speed video for the masses.
These mechanical properties were discovered 40 years ago using high speed 35 MM film at 500 frames using the first strobe video technology. Really nothing new but who likes to learn this stuff from scientists with credentials?



Lets use proper terms from the fields science, this would be lengthening! When you stretch muscle, tendon and ligament tissues past their elastic point range of motion they micro tear and grade tear.



Right because it is only a postural set to turn over the Humerus and forearm, look at the video closely and you will see it but you may not admit what you are actually seeing as does most.

You can attain even lengthier postural set by pendulum swinging down then back then up with the arm straight back and on the driveline with the hips and shoulders there also supinating on the way back so you can attain outwards Humeral rotation much earlier.
This eliminates UCl over stress from bounce and shoulder stress by not having the Humerus get out of line from start to finish to recovery. It has been found that all MLB pitchers who attain these over early rotation end up with a loose shoulder capsule the downward spiral to oblivion.

You might want to try and understand these principles?



Carl Sagan said this about scientific discovery “You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

I find it ironic that you of all people would post this quote.

Since you have created your belief system on non credentialed people who make blanket statements without detailed explanations this is normal. It’s where baseball is at.

I base my belief system on science. Marshall may have some ideas that can help with minimizing injuries, but his overall theories are not effective for high level pitching because of his misuse of the physics involved.

[Baseball gLove]

Dirt you are not a scientist or a doctor. you are a coach. You throw out Newton and Sagan with out really understanding them. I get my information from a professor of bio-mechanical engineering. He does not have one high speed camera, he has several that he uses together to develop his positions on sports bio mechanics. I am going to believe him before you or Marshall.

[Dirtberry]

Baseball love,

“What is eye opening is how you miss the little extra acceleration that comes up from the ground as the glove-side leg straightens”

As you have miss-diagnosed this mechanic that some produce and some do not (Seaver-topped 98 MPH, Nomo and many many more high velo athletes) it is no wonder your belief system has gotten even this wrong.
The only way this mechanic can add any thing is the contraction of muscles not the earth and this can only happen if the bodies center of mass gets slightly or lengthier more ahead of this leg.

“A lot of PSI being transferred up through the hip and the serape muscles”

This is the angulations I mentioned! You missed it, go back and read again and you will catch it or commit another error.

“The same muscles your guys use when you are training the wrong foot throws”

With wrong foot throw the bodies mass is ahead of this leg and the reason we do it.
Now this mechanic actually uses slight separation and every kid and especially outfielders should be maximally long linear tossing this way, I have had incredible results since we incorporated it, thanx for mentioning this Love!!!!!

“Marshall does not want you guys taking advantage of one of Newton's Laws which would add a little extra humph to your velocity”

Dr.Marshall ironically is the first and still only one who talks about and to employ Newtons principles!

“Tyler Matzek is using it”

No !!!! Tyler uses the inferior leg lift traditional mechanic and the longer he works with his developers the worse it will become, you should see what the new developers have done to him now because they are unaware of his history or are incapable of improving what he was doing before but this thread is about “The allusion of Hip/shoulder separation not your fantasies and agenda’s.

[Dirtberry]

Azmatsfan,

“This demonstrates to me that although you know the scientific language for biomechanic movements, you don't understand the physics at all”

This new to you information breaks down many others also who make the same blanket statements with no explanations.

“I find it ironic that you of all people would post this quote”

I found it right on the money and proven by retorts like this.

“I base my belief system on science”

Than you have a chance to discus what is actually happening on the high speed video, not what you previously thought, it’s all there right in front of you but I don’t expect you to be honest in these regards and discussion, you have already gone personal that is not science.

“Marshall may have some ideas that can help with minimizing injuries”

All based on sound science and really the first one to do so.

“but his overall theories are not effective for high level pitching”

Yet many perform them at these high levels like Lincecum and it’s growing yearly making this statement false.

“because of his misuse of the physics involved”

Blanket statements with no explanations are silly. Try sticking to the subject of the video. How brave you are when Dr.Marshall is not here to defend himself against your type of sophomoric statements, grow up!! He did not post this thread.

[songtitle]

Dirt you are not a scientist or a doctor. you are a coach. You throw out Newton and Sagan with out really understanding them.

This.....................

[azmatsfan]

Azmatsfan,



This new to you information breaks down many others also who make the same blanket statements with no explanations.



I found it right on the money and proven by retorts like this.



Than you have a chance to discus what is actually happening on the high speed video, not what you previously thought, it’s all there right in front of you but I don’t expect you to be honest in these regards and discussion, you have already gone personal that is not science.



All based on sound science and really the first one to do so.



Yet many perform them at these high levels like Lincecum and it’s growing yearly making this statement false.



Blanket statements with no explanations are silly. Try sticking to the subject of the video. How brave you are when Dr.Marshall is not here to defend himself against your type of sophomoric statements, grow up!! He did not post this thread.

A couple points, then I'll leave the subject alone.

1) Your understanding of the traditional pitching motion and how the body generates acceleration is NOT based on sound physics. I'm not even arguing about which pitching mechanics are better. I'm just stating that the explanations you have given for how the body works in a traditional pitching motion are inaccurate. The only reason I bring up Marshall is that I know you base a lot of what you believe on his theories, and he makes the same inaccurate claims, although I suspect with his academic background, Marshall does it purposefully.

2) Lincecum does not use traditional Marshall mechanics. In fact he is the poster boy for using the kinetic chain and hip/shoulder separation to generate speed.