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  • Rear Leg Action

    deleted by NoonTime
    Last edited by NoonTime; 11-06-2013, 08:52 PM.
    @noontimegifs

  • #2
    The back knee stays bent, so what 'action' is going on with the leg?

    Stand on one leg with your knee bent, and see what 'action' you can do.
    efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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    • #3
      Originally posted by songtitle View Post
      The back knee stays bent, so what 'action' is going on with the leg?

      Stand on one leg with your knee bent, and see what 'action' you can do.
      jbooth won't like to hear that. he doesn't appreciate the middle out approach.

      great gifs as always noon. what are you seeing there? I see that the leg stays bent but I definitely see that the leg is "leaning inward" (knee going forward) before the heel even leaves the ground. I think this is important because it channels the energy forward (heel not going back or squishing the bug).
      Last edited by dominik; 08-23-2012, 10:54 AM.
      I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by songtitle View Post
        The back knee stays bent, so what 'action' is going on with the leg?

        Stand on one leg with your knee bent, and see what 'action' you can do.
        Geez, man, when are you going to learn that you can move the femur while the knee is bent? The action is mostly in the glutes. The glutes (and other muscles) move the femur (upper leg) in hitting and partly in pitching. The action in medical terms is abduction and external rotation of the femur. Done by muscles in your butt mostly. The gluteus medius, gluteus minimus and the quadratis femoris, and others not shown here.

        Last edited by jbooth; 08-28-2012, 09:16 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jbooth View Post
          The action in medical terms is abduction and external rotation of the femur.
          Are you a doctor?

          Geez, man, when are you going to learn that you can move the femur while the knee is bent?
          Sure. I guess you could push a nail in, but a hammer would be better.
          Last edited by songtitle; 08-28-2012, 09:48 AM. Reason: ...
          efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jbooth View Post
            Geez, man, when are you going to learn that you can move the femur while the knee is bent? The action is mostly in the glutes. The glutes (and other muscles) move the femur (upper leg) in hitting and partly in pitching. The action in medical terms is abduction and external rotation of the femur. Done by muscles in your butt mostly. The gluteus medius, gluteus minimus and the quadratis femoris, and others not shown here.

            JB, I think you might have a typo above (in bold), didn't you mean "internal" there?



            In the "power/drive" phase of the above clips, I'm seeing IR of the rear leg instead of ER.....unless you were looking and writing of a different phase that I read wrong in your post.

            Yes, ER may begin the opening of the "hips" (pelvic girdle).....but once they are "started", I believe you'd agree that we're seeing IR, as the rear knee moves/turns medially. I believe this is the movement that is easiest to see, and what most folks are referring to when they speak of the movement of the rear leg in hitting and throwing.

            Other than that, nice post....
            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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            • #7
              deleted by NoonTime
              Last edited by NoonTime; 11-06-2013, 08:52 PM.
              @noontimegifs

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              • #8
                Originally posted by NoonTime View Post
                I guess the dynamic I am trying to better understand is do the hips turning make the rear thigh turn over like that or is there a active action in the leg that starts turning first and helps drive the hips?
                If the "hips turning make the rear thigh turn over", than the movement is being generated from the top>>>>down. If you are using an "active action in the leg that starts turning first and helps drive the hips, than the movement is being generated from the bottom>>>>up....

                And you have just summarized the "Great Baseball Hitting Debate".

                At least both of these can be seen, demonstrated, and argued right or wrong, from video of hitters of all ages and level. The only thing I'm not sure about, is how anyone can possibly accept or justify the "middle out" theory of hitting that I've seen written, but never once has someone posted a video of it....at least not one that I've ever seen. :noidea

                I think it is especially apparent in the OF throwers, where to me anyways it looks like the amount and timing of the inward leg drive happens before the requisite amount of hip turn has happened, thus leading me to believe the leg is the "driver" and not just along for the ride from the turning hips.
                So you are leaning towards, or have accepted the "bottom>>>>up" theory.

                You see it OF throwers (possibly a contributor that separates great arms from average?) ... to a lesser degree with pitchers... and it's visible to a lesser degree with batters (Bags being the most extreme example and the most visible).
                I think "visible" is the key word there. Much of that has to do with length and/or greater distance the feet are apart/separated....either in the stance, or as a result of the stride.

                I don't know if the muscles that are "driving" are actually considered "leg" muscles. The mental cue for me is trying to take my right front pocket to my junk.
                I am excusing myself from talking about, or making any comments about your "junk".

                It's not a thought of the foot, or driving the knee, or even turning the thigh, but higher up. Is it inward rotation or inward drive or inward pressure? It's probably a combination of all and for me the thought of taking the pocket to the junk (as opposed to some lower part of the leg driving) adds just enough rotational component along with the inward pressure without overcooking the IR aspect.
                When actually hitting, there should never be any "thought" of any particular mechanic per se, but they should be ingrained to the point of being second nature. When hitting we should be getting more Neanderthal, "see ball, hit ball".....and the body should respond appropriately to let that happen as efficiently as possible.

                All of this "anatomical talk" is merely a way of sharing thoughts on what we're seeing high level hitters do physically, to better devise methods of teaching to replicate that in our developing hitters.....but I think you already know that, just sharing for maybe some of the new posters or lurkers that might be out there reading along.

                Anyway, I find it interesting because in looking at the clips of throwers, pitchers, and hitters it seems to be a movement that is happening across many motor actions of baseball and yet outside of the endless ER/IR debate in hitting I haven't come across it that much. Not saying it isn't out there, but in the OF throwing for example, I haven't heard any coach/instructor specifically teaching the rear leg drive as seen in Harper and Ruggiano.
                If you ever have a kid do the "walk up" or "Happy Gilmore" drill, you'll see that very little coaching/"teaching" is needed for them to complete the drill, and move their body parts in the proper sequential order and timing, to swing the bat as close to any high level hitter as you'll ever see.

                Only problem, is that those pesky pitchers want to constantly try to upset our hitters' timing, to the point that the "walk up" drill style, becomes VERY ineffective when used in game situations, so we must "teach" them a way to take what they're doing in that dynamic drill, and optimize it into a static stance and then try to duplicate it from there. Much easier said than done.....obviously.

                Ok.. enough words Back to GIFer!
                For sure, you sorta caught me off guard.....I was scratching my head trying to figure out who wrote that for you. Oh, you know I kid....
                In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                  JB, I think you might have a typo above (in bold), didn't you mean "internal" there?



                  In the "power/drive" phase of the above clips, I'm seeing IR of the rear leg instead of ER.....unless you were looking and writing of a different phase that I read wrong in your post.

                  Yes, ER may begin the opening of the "hips" (pelvic girdle).....but once they are "started", I believe you'd agree that we're seeing IR, as the rear knee moves/turns medially. I believe this is the movement that is easiest to see, and what most folks are referring to when they speak of the movement of the rear leg in hitting and throwing.

                  Other than that, nice post....
                  I meant that the initial force that is applied is an action that tries to externally rotate the femur. Yes, once you get moving forward, the back leg internally rotates.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NoonTime View Post
                    If I stand on my left leg with my right knee bent there are lots of actions I can do with my right leg. I know that isn't what songtitle was talking about but none of these guys are standing static over their backside bent leg either. So what actions can you do as you transition from a weight bearing right leg (I am a right handed thrower/batter) to a non weighted rear leg? Can you abduct/adduct? Can you internal/external rotate?

                    I guess the dynamic I am trying to better understand is do the hips turning make the rear thigh turn over like that or is there a active action in the leg that starts turning first and helps drive the hips? I think it is especially apparent in the OF throwers, where to me anyways it looks like the amount and timing of the inward leg drive happens before the requisite amount of hip turn has happened, thus leading me to believe the leg is the "driver" and not just along for the ride from the turning hips. You see it OF throwers (possibly a contributor that separates great arms from average?) ... to a lesser degree with pitchers... and it's visible to a lesser degree with batters (Bags being the most extreme example and the most visible).

                    I don't know if the muscles that are "driving" are actually considered "leg" muscles. The mental cue for me is trying to take my right front pocket to my junk. It's not a thought of the foot, or driving the knee, or even turning the thigh, but higher up. Is it inward rotation or inward drive or inward pressure? It's probably a combination of all and for me the thought of taking the pocket to the junk (as opposed to some lower part of the leg driving) adds just enough rotational component along with the inward pressure without overcooking the IR aspect.

                    Anyway, I find it interesting because in looking at the clips of throwers, pitchers, and hitters it seems to be a movement that is happening across many motor actions of baseball and yet outside of the endless ER/IR debate in hitting I haven't come across it that much. Not saying it isn't out there, but in the OF throwing for example, I haven't heard any coach/instructor specifically teaching the rear leg drive as seen in Harper and Ruggiano.

                    Ok.. enough words Back to GIFer!

                    Cheers,
                    NoonTime
                    Lots of muscles are being activated. Let's not go into all of that. However, you should get clear on what leg muscles are and what core, or "middle" muscles are, and what they do.

                    Here is the torso;



                    The muscles that move the upper leg bones are connected between the pelvic bone and the leg bones. Your butt muscles and thigh muscles, and more.

                    The muscles that move your ribcage are connected between the top of the pelvic bone and your ribcage. The stomach and back muscles. Or, "core" muscles.

                    When you're hanging from a bar, the core muscles can make your hips turn. When you're standing on the ground, they make your shoulders/ribcage move. When you're standing on the ground the LEG muscles move your hips.

                    In layman's terms the muscles that connect around the hip and hip joint as shown below, are what move the "hips" (pelvic bone), when swinging or throwing.

                    Last edited by jbooth; 08-28-2012, 12:05 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                      I meant that the initial force that is applied is an action that tries to externally rotate the femur. Yes, once you get moving forward, the back leg internally rotates.
                      OK, I can live with that.

                      What I think is interesting and very noticeable in the throwing clips above....is to look at how much IR is happening, while they are still taking the ball/hand up and rearward, as the are still "loading/stretching" and preparing for the "drive" forward.

                      I believe that high level hitters are preparing to "drive/launch" their swing with the same underlying mechanics, but because of the limited time and area in which they have to accomplish it in, it becomes much more difficult to see.
                      In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                        OK, I can live with that.

                        What I think is interesting and very noticeable in the throwing clips above....is to look at how much IR is happening, while they are still taking the ball/hand up and rearward, as the are still "loading/stretching" and preparing for the "drive" forward.

                        I believe that high level hitters are preparing to "drive/launch" their swing with the same underlying mechanics, but because of the limited time and area in which they have to accomplish it in, it becomes much more difficult to see.
                        Yes, the "coil" puts the rear femur into an IR position, but the force that drives you out of the load and/or coil is an abduction/ER action. Then, once that force gets the torso moving and weight gets moved to the front foot, the back leg internally rotates as weight comes off of it. And, in pitching it also extends, whereas in hitting it remains flexed. The internal rotation that occurs after the shift, does not provide any power to the hip rotation, it is a follow through action.

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                        • #13
                          deleted by NoonTime
                          Last edited by NoonTime; 11-06-2013, 08:52 PM.
                          @noontimegifs

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NoonTime View Post
                            I can not reconcile your words with this picture. You see the actions occurring how you describe them at the respective points in time?
                            This part of what I stated;
                            "Yes, the "coil" puts the rear femur into an IR position, but the force that drives you out of the load and/or coil is an abduction/ER action."
                            Is referring to a pitcher in his balance/coiled/loaded position and a hitter in his coiled position. There is no initial IR in the outfielder's throw that is shown above.

                            I stand by the rest of what I stated.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NoonTime View Post
                              I can not reconcile your words with this picture. You see the actions occurring how you describe them at the respective points in time?
                              Halladay internally rotates, flexes, abducts and extends at approximately the points I paused and noted in the gif below;



                              The external rotation is the muscle action occurring at that point, not necessarily a visible external rotation. I'm talking about the muscle actions.
                              Last edited by jbooth; 08-28-2012, 03:23 PM.

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