cutting the corner by 15 feet at third base

[skipper5]

In another thread, it was stated that a baserunner intentionally cut the corner at 3B, which enabled him to score, taking advantage of two-man umpiring squad

During the action, I watch R2 cut the corner at 3rd by 15 feet.

From a purely pragmatic standpoint (in other words, does crime pay? what's the risk vs. reward?): What if this baserunner got caught flagrantly cutting the corner?

At the teenaged level such as HS baseball or American Legion baseball,or a well-established independent program, this incredibly bush league play would never be forgotten by the opposing coach--who would slander your program for the rest of his years--and would never by forgotten by the certified umpires, who would slander your program endlessly to their fellow boys in blue.

Ignoring morality, from a pragmatic standpoint alone, I cannot understand how any coach in an established program would coach this play and/or create the team chemistry wherein a player would do this on his own, to the long-term detriment of the program.

[ipitch]

I guess it doesn't matter much, but it said that the run didn't score.

Ignoring morality, from a pragmatic standpoint alone, I cannot understand how any coach in an established program would coach this play and/or create the team chemistry wherein a player would do this on his own, to the long-term detriment of the program.

I think it's possible that the player did it on his own, and it's not the coach's fault at all. It happens. For all we know, the coach may have found out after the game what the player did and kicked him off the team.

[Baseball gLove]

There is a coach in the CIF SS at a small high school that used to do this in 14u. I hope he doesn't do this anymore. He also had pitchers throw at batters heads and sent fastball messages to umpires using his pitcher and catcher.

[mudvnine]

In another thread, it was stated that a baserunner intentionally cut the corner at 3B, which enabled him to score, taking advantage of two-man umpiring squad

During the action, I watch R2 cut the corner at 3rd by 15 feet.

From a purely pragmatic standpoint (in other words, does crime pay? what's the risk vs. reward?): What if this baserunner got caught flagrantly cutting the corner?

At the teenaged level such as HS baseball or American Legion baseball,or a well-established independent program, this incredibly bush league play would never be forgotten by the opposing coach--who would slander your program for the rest of his years--and would never by forgotten by the certified umpires, who would slander your program endlessly to their fellow boys in blue.

Ignoring morality, from a pragmatic standpoint alone, I cannot understand how any coach in an established program would coach this play and/or create the team chemistry wherein a player would do this on his own, to the long-term detriment of the program.

Some "coaches" (term used loosely), consider their team's record as a reflection of their "coaching" ability, and as such, employ a "win-at-all-cost" and "if you don't cheat, you're not trying hard enough" type of philosophies to reach their misguided goal(s).

[real green]

Devil's advocate only, baseball and other sports have all kinds of teaches that push the, "if the official doesn't see it - it's not a penalty," type of mentality. Funny how some are considered over the line while others are very acceptable.

[skipper5]

Some "coaches" (term used loosely), consider their team's record as a reflection of their "coaching" ability, and as such, employ a "win-at-all-cost" and "if you don't cheat, you're not trying hard enough" type of philosophies to reach their misguided goal(s).

Mud,
I agree regarding the source of their misguided motivation.

But IMO their tactics would backfire against their win-at-all-costs goal--by providing the entire conference with bulletin-board material, and by alienating the umpires with a tactic that shows them up.

[skipper5]

Devil's advocate only, baseball and other sports have all kinds of teaches that push the, "if the official doesn't see it - it's not a penalty," type of mentality. Funny how some are considered over the line while others are very acceptable.

From a pragmatic standpoint, it's acceptable if it won't cost your team wins in the future.

[mudvnine]

Mud,
I agree regarding the source of their misguided motivation.

But IMO their tactics would backfire against their win-at-all-costs goal--by providing the entire conference with bulletin-board material, and by alienating the umpires with a tactic that shows them up.

Those types of "coaches" don't care what other people think. It's a narcissistic personality that drives them to do what they do, and is deeper seeded than what the outside world thinks of them.

[omg]

I agree that this move crosses the line-considerably- and from a pragmatic point of view it is likely to backfire (develop bad reputation/fire up opponents). Just not worth it.

I always enjoy discussing these questionable moves because it is important to know where the 'line" is. As pointed out, baseball has plenty of 'tricks", some appropriate, some not. Just depends on the level/league, etc. Not always easy to figure out. Not always agreement.

[mudvnine]

I always enjoy discussing these questionable moves because it is important to know where the 'line" is. As pointed out, baseball has plenty of 'tricks", some appropriate, some not. Just depends on the level/league, etc. Not always easy to figure out. Not always agreement.

Very good point "omg"......

I like to think that "tricks" conceivable within the contents of the rule book and intent of the game are given more leeway, than ones like that described above, that's outside of them.

[real green]

Even something as simple as the catcher framing a pitch is a form of cheating.

[mudvnine]

Even something as simple as the catcher framing a pitch is a form of cheating.

Is it? I don't understand how.

Aren't the umpires supposed to make their "ball/strike" determination in accordance to where the ball crossed the plate....before it's even in the catcher's glove for him to "frame it"?

If it's in the rule book that it's illegal than I missed it and stand corrected, but I don't remember reading that in there.

[real green]

Is it? I don't understand how.

Aren't the umpires supposed to make their "ball/strike" determination in accordance to where the ball crossed the plate....before it's even in the catcher's glove for him to "frame it"?

If it's in the rule book that it's illegal than I missed it and stand corrected, but I don't remember reading that in there.

Why do you frame a pitch?

[real green]

Very good point "omg"......

I like to think that "tricks" conceivable within the contents of the rule book and intent of the game are given more leeway, than ones like that described above, that's outside of them.

What if the only person that saw a player cut the corner was the umpire, will the umpire call him out? At what point, 1ft 2 ft 3ft 5ft 10ft 15ft??

[mudvnine]

Why do you frame a pitch?

To gain an advantage if one just might be available to us.

Should we not take advantage of opportunities afforded us, whether that be a mistake by the other team, or even the umpire?

Again, if I'm breaking a rule by teaching that, please let me know and I'll stop doing it, but as of yet, I'm not aware of one where I might be.